Life In 19x19 :: Damezumari, anyone?

After extending one more black can still win the capturing race against the lower white 3 stones, but he can also capture the 3 on top. If white resists by trying to capture black, black can play this way and threaten to escape. If white insists then he can treat the 3 as a thrown in and kill white like this. White cannot block due to a shortage of liberties and then, after the capture and connecting back playing inside or putting the 3 white stones in atari are miai for killing white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B White failure $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X . O 5 7 | $$ . . . X O 6 O 3 | $$ . . X O O 2 1 8 | $$ . . X . . O X . | $$ . . . X . O X 4 | $$ . . . . , X O . | $$ . . . . . X O 9 | $$ . . . . . X O C | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If white tries to resist like this, black just wins the capturing race. White can make 1 eye, but 1 eye does not a live white group make.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B More failure from white $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X . O 4 . | $$ . . . X O . O 3 | $$ . . X O O 2 1 . | $$ . . X . . O X . | $$ . . . X . O X . | $$ . . . . , X O 5 | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

EDIT: This seems to work and is even easier. White cannot capture 5 anyway; still not enough liberties. Nor can white push to atari black. Black just connects back.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black connects back and white still fails $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X . O 5 . | $$ . . . X O 6 O 3 | $$ . . X O O 2 1 7 | $$ . . X . . O X . | $$ . . . X . O X 4 | $$ . . . . , X O . | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

EDIT2: Do want to note that white can start a ko. If he has a 40 point threat he might make this solution bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O 5 | $$ . . . X O 1 O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X 6 | $$ . . . X . O X O | $$ . . . . , X O 3 | $$ . . . . . X O 4 | $$ . . . . . X O 2 | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X X | $$ . . . X . O X 3 | $$ . . . . , X 1 2 | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O . | $$ . . X O O O . 1 | $$ . . X . . O . . | $$ . . . X . O . O | $$ . . . . , X O X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of , W lives $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O 3 | $$ . . . X O 1 O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X 5 | $$ . . . X . O X O | $$ . . . . , X O 4 | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . X O 2 | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of , W lives $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O . | $$ . . X O O O . 9 | $$ . . X . . O 7 O | $$ . . . X . O 6 O | $$ . . . . , X O X | $$ . . . . . X O 8 | $$ . . . . . X O X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X . O . . | $$ . . . X O . O 3 | $$ . . X O O 2 1 8 | $$ . . X . . O X . | $$ . . . X . O X 4 | $$ . . . . , X O 5 | $$ . . . . . X O 6 | $$ . . . . . X O 7 | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X 3 O . 2 | $$ . . . X O . O X | $$ . . X O O O X O | $$ . . X . . O X . | $$ . . . X . O X O | $$ . . . . , X O 1 | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O 5 | $$ . . . X O 1 O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X 6 | $$ . . . X . O X O | $$ . . . . , X O 3 | $$ . . . . . X O 4 | $$ . . . . . X O 2 | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X X | $$ . . . X . O X 3 | $$ . . . . , X 1 2 | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O . | $$ . . X O O O . 1 | $$ . . X . . O . . | $$ . . . X . O . O | $$ . . . . , X O X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of , W lives $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O 3 | $$ . . . X O 1 O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X 5 | $$ . . . X . O X O | $$ . . . . , X O 4 | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . X O 2 | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of , W lives $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O . | $$ . . X O O O . 9 | $$ . . X . . O 7 O | $$ . . . X . O 6 O | $$ . . . . , X O X | $$ . . . . . X O 8 | $$ . . . . . X O X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X . O . . | $$ . . . X O . O 3 | $$ . . X O O 2 1 8 | $$ . . X . . O X . | $$ . . . X . O X 4 | $$ . . . . , X O 5 | $$ . . . . . X O 6 | $$ . . . . . X O 7 | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X 3 O . 2 | $$ . . . X O . O X | $$ . . X O O O X O | $$ . . X . . O X . | $$ . . . X . O X O | $$ . . . . , X O 1 | $$ . . . . . X O O | $$ . . . . . X O X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X . O 6 . | $$ . . . X O . O 3 | $$ . . X O O 2 1 5 | $$ . . X . . O X . | $$ . . . X . O X 4 | $$ . . . . , X O . | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . X O . | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is a vital point, forcing :w2:

threatens to capture the White stones one the bottom, a snapback, and a ko. It does White no good to protect at :w6:

now.

is excellent! It allows White to protect at :w6:

and capture the five Black stones. It turns out that they are poison.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm7 $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X 1 O O 4 | $$ . . . X O 2 O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X 6 | $$ . . . X . O X O | $$ . . . . , X O . | $$ . . . . . X O 5 | $$ . . . . . X O 3 | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is key, forcing White to fill the potential eye at :w8:

in order to capture the Black stones. White is short of liberties otherwise.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm13 $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O . | $$ . . X O O O 2 1 | $$ . . X . . O . O | $$ . . . X . O 3 O | $$ . . . . , X O . | $$ . . . . . X O X | $$ . . . . . X O X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is a hammer blow. If :w14:

ataris,

takes away the potential second eye because of damezumari.

SoDesuNe found an interesting sacrifice for White leading to an under the stones play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm10 SoDesuNe's variation $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O 3 | $$ . . . X O O O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X 4 | $$ . . . X . O X O | $$ . . . . , X O 1 | $$ . . . . . X O 2 | $$ . . . . . X O X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm14 $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O X | $$ . . X O O O X X | $$ . . X . . O X X | $$ . . . X . O X 3 | $$ . . . . , X 1 2 | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm17 $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . . X O | $$ . . . . X X O O | $$ . . . X X O O O | $$ . . . X O O O . | $$ . . X O O O . 1 | $$ . . X . . O . . | $$ . . . X . O . O | $$ . . . . , X O X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X . X | $$ . . . . . X X X | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But

strikes at the vital point and kills.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Damezumari, anyone?
Here is a nice problem I just ran across. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O . \| $$ . . X O O . . . \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X . \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Enjoy!

Author:	moyoaji [ Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Is this it? After extending one more black can still win the capturing race against the lower white 3 stones, but he can also capture the 3 on top. If white resists by trying to capture black, black can play this way and threaten to escape. If white insists then he can treat the 3 as a thrown in and kill white like this. White cannot block due to a shortage of liberties and then, after the capture and connecting back playing inside or putting the 3 white stones in atari are miai for killing white. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B White failure $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O 5 7 \| $$ . . . X O 6 O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 8 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O 9 \| $$ . . . . . X O C \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` If white tries to resist like this, black just wins the capturing race. White can make 1 eye, but 1 eye does not a live white group make. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B More failure from white $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O 4 . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 . \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X . \| $$ . . . . , X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` EDIT: This seems to work and is even easier. White cannot capture 5 anyway; still not enough liberties. Nor can white push to atari black. Black just connects back. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black connects back and white still fails $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O 5 . \| $$ . . . X O 6 O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 7 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` EDIT2: Do want to note that white can start a ko. If he has a 40 point threat he might make this solution bad.

Author:	RBerenguel [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
moyoaji's solution above looks reasonable (I didn't completely read it because I don't want to spoil myself the "real" reading ) but this in this problem the marked spot gives me feelings. Seems to not work, but anyway.. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O . \| $$ . . X O O x . . \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X . \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]`

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O 5 . \| $$ . . . X O 7 O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 6 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Ko is not the answer. Black can kill.

Author:	moyoaji [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B ko threat, responds $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O 5 . \| $$ . . . X O 7 0 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 6 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` If black has no threat how does he respond to this?

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Damezumari, anyone? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9228	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Splatted [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X a O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O b \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 . \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X . \| $$ . . . . , X O 3 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Now a and b are miai right? This feels too simple so I guess I've overlooked something...

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
moyoaji wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B ko threat, responds $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O 5 . \| $$ . . . X O 7 0 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 6 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` If black has no threat how does he respond to this? That depends on the rest of the board. Early in the game he should play elsewhere. Later he should just capture the three stones, which will probably be sente.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Splatted wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X a O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O b \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 . \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X . \| $$ . . . . , X O 3 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Now a and b are miai right? This feels too simple so I guess I've overlooked something... Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O . \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 4 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X . \| $$ . . . . , X O 3 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]`

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Well, nobody has found the solution yet, so here are the first two plays. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O . \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 . \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X . \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` is obviously a vital point. For one thing, it is where White would play to live. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O . \| $$ . . X O O 3 1 2 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X . \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` If is this hane, plainly kills.

Author:	Shaddy [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 7 O 6 . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 5 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]`

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
@ Shaddy What next?

Author:	moyoaji [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Shaddy wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 7 O 6 . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 5 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` I had considered that, but this wins for white. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm8 Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O 3 \| $$ . . . X O 1 O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X 2 O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]`

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
moyoaji wrote: Shaddy wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 7 O 6 . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 5 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` I had considered that, but this wins for white. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm8 Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O 3 \| $$ . . . X O 1 O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X 2 O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Hint: Try a different

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O 5 \| $$ . . . X O 1 O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X 6 \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 3 \| $$ . . . . . X O 4 \| $$ . . . . . X O 2 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X X \| $$ . . . X . O X 3 \| $$ . . . . , X 1 2 \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O . \| $$ . . X O O O . 1 \| $$ . . X . . O . . \| $$ . . . X . O . O \| $$ . . . . , X O X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of , W lives $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O 3 \| $$ . . . X O 1 O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X 5 \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 4 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O 2 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of , W lives $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O . \| $$ . . X O O O . 9 \| $$ . . X . . O 7 O \| $$ . . . X . O 6 O \| $$ . . . . , X O X \| $$ . . . . . X O 8 \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 8 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O 6 \| $$ . . . . . X O 7 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 3 O . 2 \| $$ . . . X O . O X \| $$ . . X O O O X O \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 1 \| $$ . . . . . X O O \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]`

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Ha ha ha, yeah, sadly that's the way I do Tsumegos. Give up one (actually working) line without thinking about every variation (putting one space lower in Var 2), find another line that seems to work but take the first best response and don't dig deeper for a more wholesome answer ( in Bill Spight's post) ^^ Really neat problem, a lot to think about =)

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Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
SoDesuNe wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O 5 \| $$ . . . X O 1 O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X 6 \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 3 \| $$ . . . . . X O 4 \| $$ . . . . . X O 2 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X X \| $$ . . . X . O X 3 \| $$ . . . . , X 1 2 \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O . \| $$ . . X O O O . 1 \| $$ . . X . . O . . \| $$ . . . X . O . O \| $$ . . . . , X O X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of , W lives $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O 3 \| $$ . . . X O 1 O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X 5 \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 4 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O 2 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of , W lives $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O . \| $$ . . X O O O . 9 \| $$ . . X . . O 7 O \| $$ . . . X . O 6 O \| $$ . . . . , X O X \| $$ . . . . . X O 8 \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 8 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O 6 \| $$ . . . . . X O 7 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 3 O . 2 \| $$ . . . X O . O X \| $$ . . X O O O X O \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 1 \| $$ . . . . . X O O \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Hint: Reconsider in variation 2.

Author:	moyoaji [ Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
Ah, here we go. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wc captures, W dies $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O 3 \| $$ . . . X O 1 O . \| $$ . . X O O O 7 6 \| $$ . . X . . O . 5 \| $$ . . . X . O 8 O \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O 4 \| $$ . . . . . X O 2 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` A difficult problem, for sure. Lots of variations, but black can kill white without ko. 7 and 8 are miai.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
The solution has been found, but it is spread over more than one post by more than one person. Not so easy, but a cool problem. Solution below. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O 6 . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 5 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` is a vital point, forcing . threatens to capture the White stones one the bottom, a snapback, and a ko. It does White no good to protect at now. is excellent! It allows White to protect at and capture the five Black stones. It turns out that they are poison. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm7 $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 1 O O 4 \| $$ . . . X O 2 O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X 6 \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O 3 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` is key, forcing White to fill the potential eye at in order to capture the Black stones. White is short of liberties otherwise. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm13 $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O . \| $$ . . X O O O 2 1 \| $$ . . X . . O . O \| $$ . . . X . O 3 O \| $$ . . . . , X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` is a hammer blow. If ataris, takes away the potential second eye because of damezumari. SoDesuNe found an interesting sacrifice for White leading to an under the stones play. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm10 SoDesuNe's variation $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O 3 \| $$ . . . X O O O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X 4 \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 1 \| $$ . . . . . X O 2 \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Wm14 $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O X \| $$ . . X O O O X X \| $$ . . X . . O X X \| $$ . . . X . O X 3 \| $$ . . . . , X 1 2 \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm17 $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X X O O O \| $$ . . . X O O O . \| $$ . . X O O O . 1 \| $$ . . X . . O . . \| $$ . . . X . O . O \| $$ . . . . , X O X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` But strikes at the vital point and kills. Edit: SoDesuNe and xed_over have found a different solution. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 . \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Black to play $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 9 O 8 . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 7 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O 6 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` I see nothing better for White than , and the keeps things simple.

Author:	ez4u [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
SoDesuNe wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 8 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O 6 \| $$ . . . . . X O 7 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 3 O . 2 \| $$ . . . X O . O X \| $$ . . X O O O X O \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 1 \| $$ . . . . . X O O \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Bill - What is the refutation of in the first diagram above? I thought it was quite a nice play and don't see how it fails.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Damezumari, anyone?
ez4u wrote: SoDesuNe wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X . O . . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 8 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O 6 \| $$ . . . . . X O 7 \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies? $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 3 O . 2 \| $$ . . . X O . O X \| $$ . . X O O O X O \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X O \| $$ . . . . , X O 1 \| $$ . . . . . X O O \| $$ . . . . . X O X \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` Bill - What is the refutation of in the first diagram above? I thought it was quite a nice play and don't see how it fails. Thanks, Dave. I did not look closely enough at SoDesuNe's post. I don't see a refutation to his either. I got this from a very nice book, Tsumego: New Research, by Kita Fumiko (1935). She did not show that play, either. Well done, SoDesuNe! Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc $$ ---------------- $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . X . X \| $$ . . . . . . X O \| $$ . . . . X X O O \| $$ . . . X 9 O 8 . \| $$ . . . X O . O 3 \| $$ . . X O O 2 1 7 \| $$ . . X . . O X . \| $$ . . . X . O X 4 \| $$ . . . . , X O 5 \| $$ . . . . . X O 6 \| $$ . . . . . X O . \| $$ . . . . . X X X \| $$ . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . \|[/go]` After SoDesuNe's move, , I do not see anything better for White than . Then keeps things simple.