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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:22 pm 
Gosei
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I am referring to move 36 of this game between Gu Li 9p and Jiang Weijing 5p:



To me it looks like something a 20k would play. Can any of us dare to claim that it is a mistake (even the commentator for this game didn't say so)? What could be the intent behind such a move? Let's discuss :).
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Offline tchan001
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:27 pm 
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surely you must be referring to move 26 instead of 36.

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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:29 pm 
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tchan001 wrote:
surely you must be referring to move 26 instead of 36.

26? It's a fairly common reduction tactic by pros, especially for Kobayashi formations, so no not really.
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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:34 pm 
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I would assume whites aim was to force black to atari there... which for me if i was black would be an automatic response almost... but when you read it out, either way black may atari could end up giving white a good result in the end.... then again I am a failing 9k so I could be wrong...

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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:46 pm 
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I guess that white is trying to introduce aji into black's position.. if that's what it is, it seems to work, since black adds quite a few moves to that area.
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Offline prokofiev
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:01 pm 
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What Shaddy says makes sense. It looks like White gets 42 and 52 essentially in sente (giving black some points, of course, but two extra moves in such a fight is presumably worth more than that).
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:23 pm 
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Rank: KGS 5d
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Figured out something else while chatting with oren. If W plays like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 4 3 5 O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . 1 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B will simply play 4 and give him an empty triangle. However, if he plays 3 first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 2 1 3 O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Suddenly he doesn't have to connect anymore- so black can't play this way, and so

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 1 2 O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . 3 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And now w can get his aji.

This post by Shaddy was liked by: Chew Terr
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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:43 pm 
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That game is FRIGHTENING! I don't know how I would deal with the adrenaline from all those massive ko fights.

Heck, I could barely keep from leaping out of my seat and pacing the floor looking at it just now! ...and I'm still at work.
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Offline Alakazam
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:52 pm 
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It just gets the hanging connection in Sente, not all that complicated, all the may be hard to think of. if you look at black playing 38 without 36, then playing hanging connection, you can see that he has Gote this time.

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:51 pm 
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I just ran into this game browsing around gogameworld.com. They should put on some kind of warning label. I can't move the left side of my body and my hair's gone completely white.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #11 Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Why isn't 145 at Q8? Maybe I am missing something, but it appears that black took about a 7 to 8 point loss by playing it at S8, which is significant in a game that white won by 7 points.

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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #12 Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:47 pm 
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I'm not sure, but my guess is that 145 at Q8 allows the Q12 group to have more liberties for a race.
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Offline Jonas
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #13 Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X 6 . . O a . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 5 1 2 O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . 3 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Looks like White was able to get sente because black cant afford to let the two stones escape now so white is able to get 'a'.

Without the exchange black can take sente like this, but I dont know if this is any good ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . 1 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline The Pilgrim
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #14 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:54 am 
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My thought : Isn't 1 protecting against the cut at 'a' ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . a O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 2 O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would play this if white played 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . 1 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: What is the meaning behind this move?
Post #15 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:14 am 
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The Pilgrim wrote:
My thought : Isn't 1 protecting against the cut at 'a' ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . a O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 2 O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would play this if white played 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . 1 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


yes it can protect the cut but by giving him penuki? giving up penuki is worse than the cut. so i will say NO for your question.

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