IMO
in your second diagram is the problem. This move looks better :Next you can play at 'a' on the upper side if white doesn't stop you. White has terrible shape and a cutting point at 'b'. This looks good enough to me.
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| 5-4 joseki(?) question http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9457 |
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| Author: | Hanmanchu [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | 5-4 joseki(?) question |
Hello everyone, I have encountered a 5-4 sequence at my local go club that I am having a hard time handling. My opponent always plays the 5-4 point, for example like this: Now, when I enter the 3-4 Point, the following sequence invariably comes up: In other words, empty triangle and then double hane. Not sure if this is joseki...but the result is always terrible for me. It has come so far that I play either the 3-3 point or away from the corner. My instinct says that when White plays 6, b should cut. Maybe like this? Thankful for your comments and suggestions! |
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| Author: | mhlepore [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
I will direct you to http://www.eidogo.com for a free online joseki dictionary. As you can see, white 6 in your diagram seems to be wrong, and you should be able to punish your opponent for playing it. The bottom line is if you don't like the result you are getting, you need to either: 1) learn the joseki associated with your invasion, 2) invade at a different point, such as 3-3, or 3) avoid invading - after all, when your opponent plays 5-4, he is really asking you to invade his corner. |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
IMO in your second diagram is the problem. This move looks better :Next you can play at 'a' on the upper side if white doesn't stop you. White has terrible shape and a cutting point at 'b'. This looks good enough to me. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
VincentCB's line does look better. I would suggest the interposition of 7 and 8 as shown below - then play his suggestion of E18: Now, if he turns with B13, it is not sente, whereas before the turn at B14 was. White's best move is probably E17, and you reply with D18, giving you a solid corner: Now you have joseki except white has a horrible cutting point. For reference, joseki looks like this: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT: My memory is faulty. Joseki is like this: The tobi is played there so that if black does cut, the result looks like this: Now the stone looks way better where it is rather than at 'a'. This makes the overall result even better for you. If he tries the tobi, he will end up with TWO cutting points: |
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| Author: | Hanmanchu [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
@ mhlepore: Thx for the link. My Problem was that the mentionned sequence is not given in joseki dictionaries... @ Vincent, Joaz: I find the idea of playing at E18 like in the normal joseki good! One question: since my two black stones have one liberty less, can white play like this: And would this still be a playable result? |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
Strange you should post this now as it occurred in one of my current games on DGS. I could not stand to play on the 2nd line so early in the game, even though I considered it and I played as you did and then connected at D18. You can see the game at http://www.dragongoserver.net/game.php?gid=859033 |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
Try this: Then if he plays safe, 'a' and 'b' are miai for you: Or, if he tries too hard... ...he dies. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
| Author: | Hanmanchu [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
I think EdLee points out the proper move in the normal joseki. @ Joaz: I like your way of protecting by falling back - I will try out this exact sequence in my next game, with good spirit! @ DrStraw Yes, a bit funny^^ I have NEVER encountered this move elsewhere! My opponent whos play it regularly is like 1k. In fact, your game is pretty much similar to how my attempts to cope with the move turn out in the end. BTW, in your game, I wonder if a White blocking move at b13 will be sente later? If yes, I guess it's big. |
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| Author: | tapir [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
mhlepore wrote: The bottom line is if you don't like the result you are getting, you need to either: 1) learn the joseki associated with your invasion, 2) invade at a different point, such as 3-3, or 3) avoid invading - after all, when your opponent plays 5-4, he is really asking you to invade his corner. This. Something else, when I first encountered a player playing always 5-4 I thought he was really good in the opening and tries to trick his opponents (he continued at 4-6 point after you went in at 3-4). I later realized that he wasn't, he was just trying to even the field because he felt really uncomfortable during the opening otherwise. Substituting your 3-4 for a 3-3 invasion really helps simplifying when your opponent tends to go to 4-6 after you invade at 3-4 |
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| Author: | Hanmanchu [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
Well I tried invading at the 3-3 point, but then he attached on 3-5 like this: Then again, because I had no idea how to play (again not in joseki books) I would play a. And then it ended up like a premature 3-3 invasion of a hoshi stone 
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| Author: | illluck [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
Hanmanchu wrote: Well I tried invading at the 3-3 point, but then he attached on 3-5 like this: Then again, because I had no idea how to play (again not in joseki books) I would play a. And then it ended up like a premature 3-3 invasion of a hoshi stone Try this instead  |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 5-4 joseki(?) question |
illluck wrote: While Illuck's move should indeed lead to at least an equal position for black, doing so is tricky. It requires getting into complex fights - which is exactly the kind of fate I perceive that you are trying to avoid with this player. Go ahead and try it if you want a baptism by fire.  ( Only if you have the ladder breaker at Q4. )However, a much more peaceful and simpler variation is this: |
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