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 Post subject: Re: Learning through imitation: replay games to get stronger
Post #21 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:53 am 
Oza

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We don't learn to speak by mere imitation and we certainly don't subject our toddlers to Winston Churchill speeches alone.


'Imitation' in this context does not mean simple mimicry but is a shorthand for a complex process of exposure to as vast an array of stimuli as possible. We leave the subconscious brain to work out all the most useful connections, and the more we expose it to, the more useful its networks become. We can guide that process a little by rewards and comments, so that the end result is that the child or pupil ends up doing more or less what we do. It has ended up in that sense as imitation, but imitation of actions along the way has not necessarily played a huge role in how we got to that situation.

In go, if you do, say, 100 tsumego problems a day, that sounds impressive, but you are not actually giving your subconscious brain much to work on. You'll end up as a one-trick pony. By looking at lots of pro games, with ideally other aspects of go also in the mix, you are giving your subconscious plenty of compost to turn into bio-fuel.

During that process (which doesn't apply in the same way to every activity, of course), trying to understand something is an often delusional ego-trip. You isolate A and B, have a think and come up with C. You may think you have discovered something, but the odds are that your subconscious brain has already discovered that and is just allowing you a cheap thrill - your own "discovery" is no more than a surface manifestation of that. In language, grammar rules are usually little more than such post-facto descriptions of innate processes.

To improve at go it seems better to feed your subconscious than to feed your ego.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning through imitation: replay games to get stronger
Post #22 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:44 am 
Lives with ko

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I'm relatively new, and I have enjoyed replaying Pro games quite a bit. I even memorized one right when I started. I consider pro games part of the reason I jumped to 9 kyu in 2 months. I reserve the right to be wrong about that. I was also doing 200-500 super-simple problems a day.

Of course, I've now been stuck at 9 kyu for 2 months, so YMMV, my mileage is obviously varying as well.

I think it's about you. If you enjoy replaying pro games, you will do it, and you will learn something from it (joseki, board positions, a few basic shapes). If you don't enjoy replaying pro games, you're gonna suffer all the way through it and hate every minute -- why do that to yourself? Make learning go fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Learning through imitation: replay games to get stronger
Post #23 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:25 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
In go, if you do, say, 100 tsumego problems a day, that sounds impressive, but you are not actually giving your subconscious brain much to work on. You'll end up as a one-trick pony. By looking at lots of pro games, with ideally other aspects of go also in the mix, you are giving your subconscious plenty of compost to turn into bio-fuel.
I never thought of it that way before :D
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During that process (which doesn't apply in the same way to every activity, of course), trying to understand something is an often delusional ego-trip. You isolate A and B, have a think and come up with C. You may think you have discovered something, but the odds are that your subconscious brain has already discovered that and is just allowing you a cheap thrill - your own "discovery" is no more than a surface manifestation of that.
So, in other words, the "understanding" happens on its own? Never thought of it that way. Just now that reminded me of the meaning of the Sino-Japanese word 暗記 (anki). "Recording in darkness".

I often compare data and information to food and a person's cognitive ability to an intestine. Some people's intestines are rather narrow, so they can only take in a few tidbits and highly digestible ones at that. Others have wide intestines and can assimilate a lot in a short amount of time.
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In language, grammar rules are usually little more than such post-facto descriptions of innate processes.
One can say that a grammar is a description of word utilization patterns in a language, produced after exhaustive sifting and analysis by linguists.
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To improve at go it seems better to feed your subconscious than to feed your ego.
Yesss :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Learning through imitation: replay games to get stronger
Post #24 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:43 pm 
Judan

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Of course, ego has little effect on improvement, and subconscious learning has a greater effect. However, John associates "ego" with "understanding", and this is where it becomes absolutely wrong. These two are very different things. In particular, understanding has an extremely much greater effect on improvement than subconscious learning without understanding. Replaying (pro) games affects both understanding and subconscious learning and so, without further explanation, it is unclear which, if either, might benefit more from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Learning through imitation: replay games to get stronger
Post #25 Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:08 am 
Oza

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However, John associates "ego" with "understanding", and this is where it becomes absolutely wrong. These two are very different things. In particular, understanding has an extremely much greater effect on improvement than subconscious learning without understanding.


Both of us are DDKs when it comes to the neuro-sciences, so of course this is like the famous battle on the horns of Zhuang Zi's snail. But Zhuang Zi was himself no more than an observer with a questioning mind, so I think we can prattle on...

I repeat that I don't believe (the delusion of) understanding has any real effect on improvement. All of the improvement work has already been done by your subconscious through the intensive work you have put in while trying to understand. Furthermore, the improvement effect is richer in terms of quality and quantity than you realise. Your "understanding" is only a snapshot of what your subconscious has already worked out for you. Note that I am not denying that RJ's work has led to an improvement in his play. I am saying it is down to quantity of work. I am also saying that he has improved in more ways than he has realised, because his subconscious creates networks of understanding that far surpass his impression of what he has understood.

I further maintain that this "understanding" will contribute very little to his own future improvement. His future improvement will again depend almost solely on how much further time he invests, and on the nature of whatever compost he chooses to feed to the soil of his subconscious.

This is not to say that this "understanding", however limited, has no value. The value is more likely to be for others. For we are in charge of our subconscious to the extent that we make choices as to how much and what sort of compost we feed it. Guidance from someone who is already stronger is likely to direct those choices effectively. In other words, "understanding" makes RJ a better teacher of someone else, not a better player. To me, it then seems to follow that a Japanese 9-dan is able to provide more effective direction than a European 5-dan amateur. The vaguer statements of the former, to which RJ objects, seem to be no bar, and may even be an advantage. To help someone improve, you don't teach your discovery that 2+2 = 4 and declare success when he has memorised the formula. You show him examples of 2+2 = 4 and 3+3=6 and so on, and let his brain work out for itself the wider and more useful concept of addition. If you allow the brain enough time and exposure to other and more difficult examples, you may even find, quite unbeknownst to you, that it has also worked out subtraction and maybe even the beginnings of multiplication. Then one day someone will talk to you about multiplication and you will suddenly think you've just understood it. The Beast Within makes a wry smile: "There egoes again!"

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 Post subject: Re: Learning through imitation: replay games to get stronger
Post #26 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:53 pm 
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After reading the posts on this thread, I surmise it might be easier for me to replay pro games and play actual games initially, since I've not any extensive experience playing baduk. At least I can say I find it more enjoyable just to replay pro games and play actual games, with only some time being dedicated to puzzles. I may have to dedicate a bit more time to puzzles and theory books as I get stronger, though. Of course I don't see myself become pro or even very strong amateur, so I'll have to aim for 3D or 5D.

It's regrettable that I can't have 8-10 hours to myself to study and practice baduk. Then again, I don't live in East Asia :sad:


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