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Teaching stronger players
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2108		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  PYves [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Teaching stronger players
I've been reading about teaching a bit lately, and I've found very little about teaching stronger players (5kyu-2dan)

I haven't found any good teaching ressources... It seems that most ressources pretty much only mention getting a stronger player to review your games once you are past ddk. I also think they assume that once you have reached sdk, you are knowledgeable enough to know where to find stuff to learn and what you want to learn.

Also since you can sell that kind of teaching a lot of teachers prefer to keep it for classes or books.

Anyone have some suggestions?
Author:  tapir [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
Amateur hallucinations, direction of play, positional judgement, slack moves, tenuki away at the crucial moment to lose the game, start a ko to lose a game... most of my games contain dozens of mistakes. And it is similar with other players of my strength. It is just one can't teach a topic without looking at a game of this pupil anymore. But teaching by reviewing, spotting problem areas thereby and then working on it should still be possible if you are a regular teacher of this particular player. That is, you will often end without prepared teaching ressources but have to improvise on the way.
Author:  Stable [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
I suppose it's not as if you can ever do enough tsumego. :study:
Author:  topazg [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
I think there is no easy one size fits all. Playing the student, understanding why they play the moves they do, can often offer some useful insights into bad thinking, which can then be corrected over time. Blunders can generally be ignored. I think it's just the same as learning at any point, there are fundamental holes in thinking for anyone below EGF 5d+ that can be addressed by someone strong enough to spot them.

Of course, there are other aspects to teaching than just go theory. Attitude, in-game psychology management, handling defeats and victories appropriately - these are all things that may be preventing the gain of another two stones, and that's another thing that good teaching can help with.

What's the context you are asking for ?
Author:  nagano [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
I would advise against trying to do this. :lol:
Author:  entropi [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
A good advice given to me was playing only simple moves that I understand. Playing enough number of boring games to grasp very well the simple moves. The idea is more learning than winning. Since I tend too much to play strange moves because I like complications, I could not overlearn the basic shapes.

For example, the advice is "don't jump two spaces unless you are sure by reading that a one space jump is bad". Like that you play clean games (maybe a little boring but clear) and you know better what is going on. At the beginning you will probably lose many games but it will pay off incredibly fast.
That was surprisingly helpful to me, but maybe that was only suited for my case, I don't know.
Author:  PYves [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
Thanks for the ideas guys, but it isn't so much that I run out of ideas for my students, but rather the fact that I have found no teaching ressources at all. (outside of paying for a go school)

reviewing games and tsumego is good for everyone, but unless you've got a lot of free time (or charge for reviews), you're not going to be able to review as many games as you'd like. I've been spicing it up at my local club with more practical exercises (counting points at set intervals, special fuseki, etc)

These exercises are simple, but different and practical so it can be more dynamic than reading a book.

I was looking for inspiration for future exercises and couldn't find a single page on sensei's library about teaching players stronger than 10 kyu.

I don't mind making them up as I go though, just was wondering if others had the same idea as I have and were sharing.
Author:  gowan [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
There is a lot of material available in books, but you might have to buy them :roll: For example, they are rather old but the two volumes of Modern Joseki and Fuseki by Sakata, published by Ishi Press have plenty of material for dan level players. Sakata's The Middle Game of Go is also good. The six Workshop Lectures books by Yilun Yang, published by Slate and Shell also have good dan-level material. Finally there are the new "Graded Go Problems for Dan Players" books by Kiseido.

I'm a bit puzzled by your question. Do you expect there to be ready-made lessons so you don't have to do any work? When I lived in Japan 50 years ago I took regular face-to-face lessons with a pro 5-dan. At the time I was around 2-dan and all the lessons consisted of were teaching games with comments. There was never any explanation of principles. I improved fast under that teaching, reaching 5-dan in a little over a year.
Author:  xed_over [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
reviewing pro games together should give plenty of material for stronger players to learn from.
Author:  freegame [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
Quote:
I was looking for inspiration for future exercises and couldn't find a single page on sensei's library about teaching players stronger than 10 kyu.

this makes much nore clear what you are looking for.

some suggestions:

you vs. the club. play a game against the students where the students can discuss their move.
this will give you an insight in the thought process of your students and allow you to explain
what goes wrong and what goes well, using the game as an example.
there are loads of possible variation of this theme.

you can (let the students) play "kill all" with black stones all around the board, or with 17 handy.

review a pro game (obvious one, but still nice if prepared in advance by the teacher)

you can also have a look at http://www.audiogolessons.com you can watch a couple of lessons to see how they teach.
they teach a very wide variety of topics, both theory and game reviews.
Author:  PYves [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
gowan wrote:
There is a lot of material available in books, but you might have to buy them :roll:

I'm a bit puzzled by your question. Do you expect there to be ready-made lessons so you don't have to do any work?


Thank you for your suggestions, buying books, paying a pro for lessons and not being lazy. thanks man.
Author:  PYves [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
freegame wrote:
this makes much nore clear what you are looking for.

some suggestions:


thanks freegame, sorry for not being clearer right off, but I still think my original question makes sense (reading it weeks later).

I like the idea of the whole club vs. me, I think I'll do that, however I generally prefer homework that a student can bring home.

My question is still why there aren't any ressources about teaching stronger players. 100% of the stuff out there is tsumego, pro games, review by stronger players and school/books.

However, for 10k+ there is a huge amount of information out there.

My club page is eventually going to have a section devoted to the exercises I've made up for the local club, but since I know I'm not the first to think up homework for strong kyus, I was just wondering if I was looking wrong or if teachers were simply keeping it and/or selling it. I think there's also the issue that without a teacher these ressources are a lot less effective, but I was surprised to find nothing anyways.
Author:  palapiku [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
PYves wrote:
100% of the stuff out there is tsumego, pro games, review by stronger players and school/books.

Don't all of these become more useful as the student gets stronger? I don't see the issue...
Author:  PYves [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
palapiku wrote:
PYves wrote:
100% of the stuff out there is tsumego, pro games, review by stronger players and school/books.

Don't all of these become more useful as the student gets stronger? I don't see the issue...


well you are right, but there are other methods possible and I wouldn't call it an issue...
Author:  dtslife [ Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Teaching stronger players
Here are some links that I find to be helpful.
AGA Book list
Check "Go Books for stronger players"
I thought that Improve your intuition series and direction of play to be fairly useful. I have not read any of the other books on the list but am looking forwarded to purchase Graded Go problems for Dan players.

Online videos
http://senseis.xmp.net/?YouTubeLectures

Keep a database of all your student's commented games so they can see how they improved and can see other student's strategies.
https://sites.google.com/site/dtslifegolessons/

Currently I am 1k. One I reach 2 dan, I'll let you know how I did it, but I have been stuck at 1kyu for awhile.
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