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 Post subject: Re: If I have to buy ONLY 1 book...
Post #21 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:38 am 
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Since nobody has mentioned this, Go! More Than a Game by Peter Shotwell is a marvellous introductory book, taking you step by step through a few games in a way that a beginner can appreciate, showing the fundamentals at work and the thought process behind them. Also, it includes an extensive history of the game. Informative, readable and entertaining!

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Post #22 Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:10 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
TimeZero wrote:
Well, I received Invicible today and i started to read up to the 1st game, and I recreated the game on my Go board, and i can see somethings i wouldn't have imagined. Like the opening, even though it's an old opening, it's still useful to know the positioning. In some situations i would have made bad moves. I still learned something.


Good for you! :)

There are people who think that studying pro games is not particularly helpful, at least until you reach a certain level. But there are many paths to the mountain top. :) Honinbo Shusai, the last head of the Honinbo House, said to become a professional player, play over 1,000 pro games. :) (OC, I don't think he meant simply playing through the game records.)

Welcome to go, and

Good luck! :)

yeah, if you can only buy one book, then any book with a collection of pro games, commented or not, would be my recommendation -- and Invincible is certainly at the top of my list.

you won't be a beginner for long, and this book will continue to be useful for a lifetime of go.


Although not so much for beginners. Invincible is really for dan players no less.

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Post #23 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:43 am 
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lorill wrote:
If you had money for only zero book, I would suggest these two pdf files :
http://holosys.co.uk/usagi/

Actually, even if you were rich, I'd still recommand them.


Hmm... What are those books, anyway?

I looked at the second book (20...8 kyu) and became confused. I am not so much stronger than the target audience, but I feel this book is not suitable for the target audience. The reason:

- some example sequences (for example diagram 4 on page 16) are clearly bad - a simple bamboo joint makes the life of white miserable on the side, and does not lead to a B2 bomber shape. Speaking of which, descending with 47 is much more efficient than the shown move.

- the emphasis on proverb "don't leave the field of battle" is contrary to many of the other books destined to the kyu audience, that try to emphasis on looking on the whole board instead of becoming tied to the local fights.

EDIT: I looked at the subsequent chapters, and they don't look so bad. So perhaps the beginning chapter was there just to show the bad plays on the level of the intended audience.

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Post #24 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:18 am 
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Helel wrote:
Dante31 wrote:
Although not so much for beginners. Invincible is really for dan players no less.


It is book that belongs in every Anglo-Saxon Go library.
We're talking inspiration and cultural heritage, not pre-chewed baby food.
Get the hardcover version while you're at it!

Anything else you need to know you can find on the Internet.


What do invading Germanic tribes have to do with Go?

Before you can get inspiration, you need to be able to understand it first. I am not saying this book is bad, it's a classic collection, but when people recommending it without discrimination it feels like they are just throwing stuff out without much thought. If you are a beginner, you want something that you can use now and that will help you get stronger. A books that you cannot understand is just a bound stack of paper.


Last edited by Dante31 on Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #25 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:41 am 
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The advice for a beginner to buy Invincible is not so unreasonable, but it would be a book for the future, not so much for now. One reason to buy it early in your go career is that books tend to go out of print and then not be available when you are ready for them. Also, there is so much information on line for free that it isn't necessary to buy your one book at the beginner level. However, a good compromise is Go, More then a Game by Shotwell. It can be supplemented with material in the beginner section of Sensei's Library (http://senseis.xmp.net/?StartingPoints) and www.goproblems.com

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Post #26 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:25 am 
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Game records too can be found online. http://gobase.org/ (with only a small one time fee you can have access to all the modern and old games on this site.)

Go books do go out of print, but with that in mind it is an unreasonable question on what to buy if you have to choose only one. There are many great books that are no use for a beginner but are highly thought after in the go world. Game records can be found in many places, like software (smart go, go game assistant...) or just free on websites.

A good tsumego book is the way to go as a first book (like: 1001 life and death problems). A tsumego book is more compact than a computer and much easier on the eyes. A good tsumego book is also better organized level wise and theme wise. It is the most 'bang for the buck' for a beginner.

If you had to take one book with you onto a deserted island where you will study go for the rest of your life from that 1 book, then Invincible or Go Seigen's collection of games might be the way to go... but realistically I doubt that this is the case.

A realistic book choice for a beginner is a tsumego book since other basic information is readily available online, or you can ask on KGS/Forum. If we look at it from a perspective that you can find anything online, then the question of which book to get becomes a rhetorical question.

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Post #27 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:54 am 
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Invincible was one of the first books I bought as a beginner, and I've not been disappointed.

Initially, I got the most out of the history.

And I usually learn something every time I play through some of the games, regardless of my go level at the time.

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Post #28 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:16 pm 
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For those what want history they should get something along the lines of '400 Years of Go in Japan'.

I see what you are saying, but if we are talking about someone who has just started playing and is buying their first book, they are most likely looking for something that will help them get a better grasp of the basics, and not a nice looking paperweight in a form of a book.

What I am trying to stress is that Invincible is not a book beginners buy to get stronger, it is for Dan players. I wouldn't want someone who has just started playing to think that they will buy this book and get stronger by reading it. They will be in for a disappointing surprise when they get it if they think that.

Whether or not it will serve as an incentive to get stronger is questionable at best. For some people it might be an incentive, for others, its complexity might be a discouragement. Either way, if a beginner buys invincible, they should realize that they are buying a relic (for now). As long as they don't think they are buying instructional material for current use, it's ok.

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Post #29 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:47 pm 
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yep, got 400 years. another great book.

and you're right, Invincible shouldn't necessarily be a first book. But the original question was about being an only book.

A beginner first book won't last as an only book. Invincible surely will :)

Dante31 wrote:
What I am trying to stress is that Invincible is not a book beginners buy to get stronger, it is for Dan players.

Here I have to disagree. Some of the best ways to get stronger...
- play stronger players
- study (review/play though) professional games

Sure, a beginner's book may give you a leg up on understanding various concepts and skills and help a complete beginner to progress to regular beginner a little bit faster, but don't completely discount the value of reviewing pro games for any level player.

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Post #30 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Helel wrote:
A physical book has a magic of it's own. I am sure you could find pirate copies of almost everything including Invincible if you were to look for it. But it's not only about the information in the book. It is the book itself, touchable and real, with the information in it. This is why I recommend getting the hardcover version. But again, I am not claiming this is a reasonable choice, only that it is my choice.


Well said! There is something about tangible reality that virtual reality can never touch. ;-)

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Post #31 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:19 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
yep, got 400 years. another great book.

and you're right, Invincible shouldn't necessarily be a first book. But the original question was about being an only book.

A beginner first book won't last as an only book. Invincible surely will :)

Dante31 wrote:
What I am trying to stress is that Invincible is not a book beginners buy to get stronger, it is for Dan players.

Here I have to disagree. Some of the best ways to get stronger...
- play stronger players
- study (review/play though) professional games

Sure, a beginner's book may give you a leg up on understanding various concepts and skills and help a complete beginner to progress to regular beginner a little bit faster, but don't completely discount the value of reviewing pro games for any level player.


The original question, more specifically, was about the only 1 book for a beginner. He mentioned that he is a beginner, so it is safe to assume he wants a book for a beginner. It is not a question of 1 book for the rest of ones life.

The fact that a appropriate level book will help progress a little faster is an understatement. Just looking over pro games without any basic technical knowledge is like trying to study calculus before you can multiply and divide. Is it beneficial for a first grader to to look over a calculus books? Could be. Will he learn calculus without learning the basic mathematics? I doubt it.

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Post #32 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Dante31 wrote:
The fact that a appropriate level book will help progress a little faster is an understatement. Just looking over pro games without any basic technical knowledge is like trying to study calculus before you can multiply and divide. Is it beneficial for a first grader to to look over a calculus books? Could be. Will he learn calculus without learning the basic mathematics? I doubt it.


Let me quote the immortal writings of Magicwand in another thread.

Magicwand wrote:
i dont want you to learn wrong ideas from kyu level players.(sorry if i offended many)
just memorizing professional games will help you improve and will open your eyes in opening part of the game.
...
hum....when i was ddk many people gave me advice "memorize 100 professional games"
i love to review professional games. i didnt mean to memorize but after good review it was automatically remaind in my brain.
back then i really didnt feel any improvement but now i look back and can see that memorizing professional game really did help me improve faster.

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Post #33 Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:45 pm 
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But still it is coupled with other study materials I am sure. I just don't see how it would be possible for a DDK to look over pro games and learn much without learning the basics. I am sure in the long run as you learn the basics the games you have memorized will start to make sense, but without understanding the basics there is just no meaning behind the moves. For a few hundred moves pro's play in a game, there are thousands that they do not that influence the moves they do play. The benefit is most likely that you memorize pro games beforehand, and use that knowledge when you get to it.

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Post #34 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:44 am 
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xed_over wrote:

The original question, more specifically, was about the only 1 book for a beginner. He mentioned that he is a beginner, so it is safe to assume he wants a book for a beginner. It is not a question of 1 book for the rest of ones life.


Someone has nailed it! But I read all suggestions no matter what. And for those who wondered, I got the hardcover version of Invincible! :mrgreen:

Helel wrote:
Not so. A physical book has a magic of it's own.


I totally agree here!

Helel wrote:
I am sure you could find pirate copies of almost everything including Invincible if you were to look for it. But it's not only about the information in the book. It is the book itself, touchable and real, with the information in it. This is why I recommend getting the hardcover version. But again, I am not claiming this is a reasonable choice, only that it is my choice.


I did buy a legit copy of Invincible. And I like books in general. I can comfortably read them laying in my bed and it's good sometimes being elsewhere than in front of my screen. ;-)

I can't never thank you all enough for all those replies! It's very appreciated! More than I expected! ;-)

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Post #35 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:08 am 
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xed_over wrote:

A beginner first book won't last as an only book.


But you can give it to other beginners which makes it more valuable. :)

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Post #36 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:22 am 
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Dante31 wrote:
But still it is coupled with other study materials I am sure. I just don't see how it would be possible for a DDK to look over pro games and learn much without learning the basics.

How can a baby learn to speak a language without learning the basics -- verbs, nouns, sentence structure?

They learn by imitating what they hear. Later, the classroom instruction of the basics will bring more clarity to what they've already learned to understand from practical usage.

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Post #37 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:48 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
Dante31 wrote:
But still it is coupled with other study materials I am sure. I just don't see how it would be possible for a DDK to look over pro games and learn much without learning the basics.

How can a baby learn to speak a language without learning the basics -- verbs, nouns, sentence structure?

They learn by imitating what they hear. Later, the classroom instruction of the basics will bring more clarity to what they've already learned to understand from practical usage.


Actually babies don't learn it on their own, they are partially taught by a parent (and others). You will notice that people instinctively repeat words, say them slowly... to babies. For your theory to work, you would need a lot of pro players all around you that will show you things from time to time. That is by the way, how most kids or pro players learn the game.

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Post #38 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:29 pm 
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Dante31 wrote:
Actually babies don't learn it on their own, they are partially taught by a parent (and others). You will notice that people instinctively repeat words, say them slowly... to babies. For your theory to work, you would need a lot of pro players all around you that will show you things from time to time. That is by the way, how most kids or pro players learn the game.


Linguistic development in infants is not definitively understood by the experts much less by any of us, so I'd be wary of extending this analogy too far (or using it in the first place).

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Post #39 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Monadology wrote:
Dante31 wrote:
Actually babies don't learn it on their own, they are partially taught by a parent (and others). You will notice that people instinctively repeat words, say them slowly... to babies. For your theory to work, you would need a lot of pro players all around you that will show you things from time to time. That is by the way, how most kids or pro players learn the game.


Linguistic development in infants is not definitively understood by the experts much less by any of us, so I'd be wary of extending this analogy too far (or using it in the first place).


The exact process is not understood but some factors are known. The fact that they don't learn it 100% through just listening is for certain. I do agree that it was a bad analogy to start with. Personally I like my math one.

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Post #40 Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:32 am 
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Hi Folks,

I am brand new to this forum & very much a beginner at Go. I first learned to play around 1980 but have never stuck with it for any long enough stretch to get any good. Now I am playing against the computer and on pandanet a bit so maybe I am getting better.

I have been studying Shotwell's Go! More Than a Game a bit. I see something that seems to be a fundamental error. This must be my own confusion somehow, would be my guess! I hope someone here can straighten me out.

He shows a seki example on pg 74. After W2, surely white has two good eyes and is immortal??? I don't see how black can threaten!

Help!

Thanks,
Jim

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