Maeda Tsumego excerpt

Jujube · #1

I'm thinking of asking my better half for Maeda's 3 volume tsumego from amazon.co.jp for my birthday (the reprinted all-in-one edition). I would find it really helpful if anyone who has the book would mind taking a pic of a page or two so that I can get an idea about how much Japanese is in the book (as I can't read it), and maybe a problem from volume 1 and a problem from volume 2 or 3 so I can get an idea about difficulty level.

Thanks!

Cassandra · #2

As with any other Japanese Tsume-Go book, it will be sufficient to be able recognising the Kanji for "Black", "White", "Solution Diagram", "Failure Diagram", "Ko".

According to the respective notes in the book for each problem,

-- Volume One is designed for 10 Kyu to 4 Kyu,
-- Volume Two is designed for 5 Kyu to 1 Kyu, and
-- Volume Three is designed for 3 Kyu to Dan level.

Please be well aware that

-- a lot of problems has a Ko as the correct solution, and
-- the above mentioned ranks have to be understood at least at Western level,

which may result in a feeling that the problems are far more difficult than "usual", compared with other problems, owning the same declared target-rank, from other authors.

gowan · #3

Here are two SL pages that will give you enough Japanese to read Maeda's books:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?BasicJapaneseForReadingGoBooks

http://senseis.xmp.net/?IntermediateJap ... ingGoBooks

Like many Japanese tsumego books the problems have brief, often one sentence, "hints" in Japanese on the order of "watch out for shortage of liberties". The solution, explanation, and failure diagrams also have brief text comments. To benefit from the books it is not necessary to be able to read these text parts.

As Cassandra said, the ranks are probably stronger than current US ranks, probably roughly equivalent to EGF, but the rank is only a suggestion of the difficulty.

Hushfield · #4

I took some quick pictures of my copy. The books come as three thin white volumes in a dark blue cardboard box. The box is horribly tight, so much so in fact that the hardest problem from this series is actually getting the books out of there without ruining them. I ended up cutting one side of the bottom edge open with an exacto knife. You don't see it when it stands in your bookshelf, and now I don't have to spend 5-10 minutes trying to get those books out. I'm interested in hearing if others that have this series experience similar problems with the cardboard box.

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The books themselves are great. Maeda's tsumego are very inventive, they always have a nice twist. Below you can see an example page from the first volume:

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This is from the second volume.

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Note: There are no pictures for the third volume, as the upload limit is set at 3 images per post.

This should give you a good idea of what the books are like. Perhaps I missed, but I don't think anybody mentioned that the Maeda series is rather old-fashioned in that it uses hiragana (a Japanese syllabary writing system) instead of western letters A-B-C to mark position in the diagrams. Even nicer: it uses the いろは-poem for order of the kana. This is clearly a tome from times past, a wonderful edition and a must-have for every go enthusiast. You couldn't ask for a better birthday present, in my humble opinion.

Jujube · #5

Oh! That's very useful, thanks! I actually thought (from seeing it on Amazon) that the dark blue box WAS the book, and it turns out that it's just a box!

I'm learning a lot so far.

I'd never heard of the iroha ordering for the kana. I've not seen markings on the problems before, only the answers. What's the significance? Do the problem descriptions make references to specific points on the board?

There is more Japanese than I expected, but that's not a bad thing, it will allow me to get a bit better at recognising the kanji.

Cassandra · #6

Jujube wrote:

I'd never heard of the iroha ordering for the kana. I've not seen markings on the problems before, only the answers. What's the significance? Do the problem descriptions make references to specific points on the board?

Usually the quotes to specific points on the board are used in the answers.

Concerning "iroha" itself (its usage is like "ABC" / "abc" in the Western world), please refer to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha

Please also note that the "usual" usage in Japanese Go books has "iroha" written in KATAKANA, similar to the writing of specific Go terms, similar to the transcription of foreign words:

イロハニホへト ...

+ + + + + + +

You will find that it is not soooo bad to NOT really understand the written text.
There is less distraction from thinking on your own !!!

Jujube · #7

I've just had the books ordered so I'll let you know if the books survive their journey only to be destroyed during extraction from the cardboard box

CnP · #8

Hushfield wrote:

... I'm interested in hearing if others that have this series experience similar problems with the cardboard box.

I bought this set too - survived shipping to the UK fine. The cardboard box set wrapper was a real pain to get them out of and didn't survive their extraction I think..(the box rather than the books), though I bought them back in 2009 so I can't remember exactly what happened to it - I think after a couple of times taking them in and out it got ruined. The books are lovely and although I don't read any Japanese I haven't had a problem with them - at least not caused by the language barrier. It would be interesting to read the commentaries though but well worth owning.

salerno · #9

They are indeed great books. I bought them in Japan last year and studied the first two volumes a few times each.

Cassandra wrote:

According to the respective notes in the book for each problem,

-- Volume One is designed for 10 Kyu to 4 Kyu,
-- Volume Two is designed for 5 Kyu to 1 Kyu, and
-- Volume Three is designed for 3 Kyu to Dan level.

I'd like to add that these notes in the book are in japanese amateur ranks, which are much weakers than ours.
I'd say, in KGS ranks: Volume One for 5kyu to 2kyu; Volume Two for 3kyu to 1dan, and Volume Three for 2dan to 3dan, or something around that.

Jujube · **#10**

salerno wrote:

I'd like to add that these notes in the book are in japanese amateur ranks, which are much weakers than ours.
I'd say, in KGS ranks: Volume One for 5kyu to 2kyu; Volume Two for 3kyu to 1dan, and Volume Three for 2dan to 3dan, or something around that.

You mean, much stronger than ours?

Well in that case, it will give me something to work towards. I have also ordered The Endgame and GGPFB vol 4. The books look really nice. Long live go books

Jujube · **#11**

CnP wrote:

Hushfield wrote:

... I'm interested in hearing if others that have this series experience similar problems with the cardboard box.

I bought this set too - survived shipping to the UK fine. The cardboard box set wrapper was a real pain to get them out of and didn't survive their extraction I think..(the box rather than the books), though I bought them back in 2009 so I can't remember exactly what happened to it - I think after a couple of times taking them in and out it got ruined. The books are lovely and although I don't read any Japanese I haven't had a problem with them - at least not caused by the language barrier. It would be interesting to read the commentaries though but well worth owning.

My strategy when they arrive is to push the books up using the bottom of the box, then push the two outer books back down into the box, using the centre book's spine to keep it in place, and simultaneously using the quarter of a centimetre I have gained to extract the middle book from the box. Perhaps wedging the box between my feet for leverage.

Maybe it will work.

Cassandra · **#12**

salerno wrote:

They are indeed great books. I bought them in Japan last year and studied the first two volumes a few times each.

Cassandra wrote:

According to the respective notes in the book for each problem,

-- Volume One is designed for 10 Kyu to 4 Kyu,
-- Volume Two is designed for 5 Kyu to 1 Kyu, and
-- Volume Three is designed for 3 Kyu to Dan level.

I'd like to add that these notes in the book are in japanese amateur ranks, which are much weakers than ours.
I'd say, in KGS ranks: Volume One for 5kyu to 2kyu; Volume Two for 3kyu to 1dan, and Volume Three for 2dan to 3dan, or something around that.

I would like to assume that your judgement is just the wrong way round.

As I have written already, compared with other Japanese Tsume-Go books (and I own a lot of these), Maeda's books are NOT related to the typical Japanese rank vs. strength relationship that is known nowadays !!!

If Japanese 10 to 4 Kyu would be comparable to KGS 5 to 2 Kyu, as you stated, Japanese ranks would be STRONGER than Western ones (or at least had been at the time, Maeda wrote his books) !!!

gowan · **#13**

Cassandra wrote:

salerno wrote:

They are indeed great books. I bought them in Japan last year and studied the first two volumes a few times each.

Cassandra wrote:

According to the respective notes in the book for each problem,

-- Volume One is designed for 10 Kyu to 4 Kyu,
-- Volume Two is designed for 5 Kyu to 1 Kyu, and
-- Volume Three is designed for 3 Kyu to Dan level.

I'd like to add that these notes in the book are in japanese amateur ranks, which are much weakers than ours.
I'd say, in KGS ranks: Volume One for 5kyu to 2kyu; Volume Two for 3kyu to 1dan, and Volume Three for 2dan to 3dan, or something around that.

I would like to assume that your judgement is just the wrong way round.

As I have written already, compared with other Japanese Tsume-Go books (and I own a lot of these), Maeda's books are NOT related to the typical Japanese rank vs. strength relationship that is known nowadays !!!

If Japanese 10 to 4 Kyu would be comparable to KGS 5 to 2 Kyu, as you stated, Japanese ranks would be STRONGER than Western ones (or at least had been at the time, Maeda wrote his books) !!!

I agree that at the time Maeda wrote these books Japanese amateur ranks were significantly stronger than Western ranks. The idea that Japanese amateur ranks are currently uniformly weaker than Western ranks is simply not true. I will just note that some stronger Japanese dan level players do well playing in US or European tournaments at their Japanese rank, and the Japanese representatives to the WAGC generally place higher than all the Western representatives. I don't know why there is the perception that Japanese ranks are currently weaker except there are several complicating factors regarding Japanese ranks. In effect there are different kinds of Japanese amateur rank for example: 1) those won through play in organized Nihon Ki-in sanctioned tournaments, 2) those won through paying to play a pro in a game, 3) club ranks earned through play at a particular gokaisho (go club). There could be other ways. It used to be the case that a rank could be earned through mailing in solutions to problems from the magazines Kidou and Igo Kurabu. My impression is that ranks of type 1) tend to be consistent with Western ranks. In any case there can be differences between the three types of rank for the same person.

oren · **#14**

gowan wrote:

I agree that at the time Maeda wrote these books Japanese amateur ranks were significantly stronger than Western ranks. The idea that Japanese amateur ranks are currently uniformly weaker than Western ranks is simply not true.

I participated in the Nihon Kiin Summer Camp where we all competed in the Takara Shuzo Cup, the biggest amateur tournament in Tokyo. For all of us, we were bumped up 3-4 ranks from our 'western' ranks. From 2k, I played as a 2d and went 3-2. Professionals also consistently concur that Japanese ranks are significantly different. Kyu players from Europe and US are often dan level in Japan.

John Fairbairn · **#15**

Quote:

I participated in the Nihon Kiin Summer Camp where we all competed in the Takara Shuzo Cup, the biggest amateur tournament in Tokyo. For all of us, we were bumped up 3-4 ranks from our 'western' ranks. From 2k, I played as a 2d and went 3-2. Professionals also consistently concur that Japanese ranks are significantly different. Kyu players from Europe and US are often dan level in Japan.

My own experience is also that I mostly have to play 3 or 4 grades higher in Japan, but I don't think that it is in any way linear. I think there is a social element to this, which was highlighted in a cartoon strip I read some time ago. There was a Japanese man about to retire and his wife wanted him to leave Tokyo and go back home to the provinces. He was willing but couldn't face doing that as a 2-kyu so he put in a bit of effort so that he could get a 1-dan diploma he could brag about to his country cousins. Since diplomas are bought as much as earned, it is easy to see how deflation at around the 1-dan level, which is also the level that westerners tend to take most notice of others' grades, becomes rampant.

I believe therefore that a truer picture is that for grades below about 2-kyu and above 3-dan, Japanese grades are about the same as western grades, but within that range it's hard to pin the tail on the donkey. At the opposite extreme I'm not sure how much the famous old sandbagger syndrome of the Hiroshima 4-dan still applies - even pros tell of being sandbagged on the islands there - but I suspect the tradition lives on and can probably be found also in pockets such as Shizuoka or Sapporo. I gather the Nihon Ki-in's own regular 4-dan members are also pretty solid by our standards.

Uberdude · **#16**

Just to add one data point: a Japanese 6 dan I played a few times in the London International teams tournament was pretty evenly matched with me (European 3 dan at the time, maybe going on 4). His play deteriorated less with speed than mine though. There's another Japanese gentleman with a 5d diploma who plays as BGA 2d but I get the impression that his 5d is generous even by Japanese standards (unlike the 6d).

salerno · **#17**

Cassandra wrote:

I would like to assume that your judgement is just the wrong way round.

As I have written already, compared with other Japanese Tsume-Go books (and I own a lot of these), Maeda's books are NOT related to the typical Japanese rank vs. strength relationship that is known nowadays !!!

If Japanese 10 to 4 Kyu would be comparable to KGS 5 to 2 Kyu, as you stated, Japanese ranks would be STRONGER than Western ones (or at least had been at the time, Maeda wrote his books) !!!

Cassandra, you're right, thanks, it was a bit confusing. Disclaimer: what I wanted to add is that the ranks in Maeda books are even stronger than kgs ranks, according more or less to the rank conversion that I wrote above.

gowan wrote:

I agree that at the time Maeda wrote these books Japanese amateur ranks were significantly stronger than Western ranks. The idea that Japanese amateur ranks are currently uniformly weaker than Western ranks is simply not true. I will just note that some stronger Japanese dan level players do well playing in US or European tournaments at their Japanese rank, and the Japanese representatives to the WAGC generally place higher than all the Western representatives. I don't know why there is the perception that Japanese ranks are currently weaker except there are several complicating factors regarding Japanese ranks. In effect there are different kinds of Japanese amateur rank for example: 1) those won through play in organized Nihon Ki-in sanctioned tournaments, 2) those won through paying to play a pro in a game, 3) club ranks earned through play at a particular gokaisho (go club). There could be other ways. It used to be the case that a rank could be earned through mailing in solutions to problems from the magazines Kidou and Igo Kurabu. My impression is that ranks of type 1) tend to be consistent with Western ranks. In any case there can be differences between the three types of rank for the same person.

As of the japanese ranks issue, it gets clearer when you're in Japan, not playing in really competitive tournaments like the ones you mention (in which upranking you is useless and even harmful to the pairings). In random japanese clubs, I had to said that I was 3d or 4d in order to get even games. In an amateur casual tournament at the Nihon Ki in, it was the same thing.

snorri · **#18**

Yeah, the box is really tight. I solved it by always having one book near my nightstand to read. I figure if I'm putting Maeda away, I'm doing something wrong anyway...

Bill Spight · **#19**

salerno wrote:

They are indeed great books. I bought them in Japan last year and studied the first two volumes a few times each.

Cassandra wrote:

According to the respective notes in the book for each problem,

-- Volume One is designed for 10 Kyu to 4 Kyu,
-- Volume Two is designed for 5 Kyu to 1 Kyu, and
-- Volume Three is designed for 3 Kyu to Dan level.

I'd like to add that these notes in the book are in japanese amateur ranks, which are much weakers than ours.
I'd say, in KGS ranks: Volume One for 5kyu to 2kyu; Volume Two for 3kyu to 1dan, and Volume Three for 2dan to 3dan, or something around that.

When the books came out, Japanese ranks were at least 2 stones stronger than today.

Edit: To be redundant.

Segoe once wrote that an amateur shodan would take 4 stones from a pro. When I was in Japan in the late 1960s an amateur shodan took 7 stones from a pro in a teaching game (which means that 7 stones would have not been enough in a serious game). So in a few decades Japanese amateur ranks had inflated by at least 3 stones, and that was over 4 decades ago.

Uberdude · **#20**

Bill Spight wrote:

Segoe once wrote that an amateur shodan would take 4 stones from a pro.

In that case what was the highest amateur dan rank? I had assumed it was at least 6, is this wrong? Or were ranks not one handicap stone apart?

Maeda Tsumego excerpt

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