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| Buying some Go books, suggestions? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=177 |
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| Author: | Nikolas73 [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
[I just tried posting this on GoDiscussions and got a "Database Error" - finally I found this website. Here is the original GD post:] Hello, I have some extra money (around $50-$70, possibly more) to spend on Go books. I am 6k on KGS, and I want to avoid buying books which are either too advanced or too simple for me. I've read "Cho Hun-Hyun's Lectures on the Opening, Volume 1," and "Opening Theory Made Easy" by Otake Hideo. I'm working my way through "Keshi and Uchikomi: Invasion and Reduction in Go" by Iwamoto Kaoru (this last one is perhaps a little advanced for me, I find I have to reread pages many times...). The comments I hear most often about my Go games are roughly "I know the right area to play in, but not the right move" and that my middle-game could be improved. Here are some books I've had recommended/I'm thinking of buying: -Lessons in The Fundamentals of Go by Kageyama Toshiro and Fundamental Principles of Go by Yilun Yang. Are these books similar? Which would be better for me? -Elementary Go Series 5: Attack and Defence by Ishida Akira and James Davis. This was recommended by the same person who said I need to work on my middle-game. What do you think, is this book suitable? -100 Tips for Amateur Players by Youngsun Yoon. I couldn't find much info about this book, is it good for my level? Can anyone who has read it post more details, please? -I've also looked at "Invincible: The Games of Shusaku." This looks like an interesting book, but the price ($50) throws me off. I've heard the book is better for dan-level players, and I feel I could get more for $50 out of some other books. Of course I'm open to other ideas too. I will probably decide and order the books sometime next week (and post reviews on my Go blog after I've read them). I have seen the other "books" thread on this forum but would prefer some individual feedback. Thanks! |
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| Author: | judicata [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Take a look at Tesuji (Davies, Elementary Go Series). There is also Get Strong at Tesuji, and Dictionary of Basic Tesuji. I've just started Attack & Defense, so I can't comment, but I've heard great things. These are all available at Kiseido or slateandshell. Note that I am of a lower rank, but I feel like these are the books that are good for a wide range of ranks or are just a bit over my head  .
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| Author: | fwiffo [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
If you need to work on your middle game, Attack and Defense is the book. Kageyama's Lessons is a good book, but maybe below your level. Fundamental Principles of Go by Yilun Yang is maybe a better fit for your particular needs (though both are good). If you don't have Tesuji, it's a real must-have. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Hear, hear. I support the votes for both Attack and Defense and Tesuji. They're both cheap enough you may have enough to spare for a problem book, like Graded Go problems for Beginners volume 4 or 1001 Life and Death Problems. |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
I first read Invincible when I was 5k and I didn't have a difficult time at all. The commentary is lengthy, but clear and the explanations are excellent. I would highly recommend this book. Attack and Defense is a book I started reading very, very late (at mid-dan level); found it easy to read, but still found many gems, and would also recommend this. |
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| Author: | dfan [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Attack and Defense is a must. You will find it incredibly valuable. Do you have any problem books? If not, you should get some. For 6k KGS, I recommend Graded Go Problems for Beginners 3 (but note, some people would recommend a harder book - I personally think it is more valuable to solve easier problems that you are more likely to encounter over the board than to bust your brain). |
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| Author: | Nikolas73 [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Thanks for the advice. Right now it looks like I will be buying Attack and Defence, Tesuji, and Fundamental Principles of Go. I have considered buying a problem book before, but the large collections of internet tsumego have held me back (GoDiscussions, Tasuki's, and I own SmartGo...). Anyway, if I have any money leftover I will buy Graded Go Problems vol. 3. The only thing really holding me back from Invincible right now is the price tag. I will probably buy it sometime in the summer. So, any other suggestions? I'm still looking for more information on "100 Tips for Amateur Players," and I might throw in "How Not to Play Go" considering it is only $10 - has anyone else read these books? Thanks. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
How not to play go is a fun read, but short (I lent a friend my copy, but I think it's 30-50 pages). It's game reviews, pointing out a specific list of amature errors. Won't help a WHOLE lot, but I consider it worth the 6 bucks or whatever I paid for it. |
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| Author: | schultz [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Sounds like you've put together a good list there. I also would recommend Kageyama - Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go. I know people are split on how useful this is, but I definitely want to put in a good word for it. It may not have a lot of real depth teaching, but it does an excellent job of motivating you, and also showing things you should be focusing on (the fundamentals!). Araban wrote: I first read Invincible when I was 5k and I didn't have a difficult time at all. The commentary is lengthy, but clear and the explanations are excellent. I would highly recommend this book. Attack and Defense is a book I started reading very, very late (at mid-dan level); found it easy to read, but still found many gems, and would also recommend this. I've really been leaning towards getting it, but I'm some where around 8-9k or so. Think I should wait until I'm a little bit stronger? Or should it be fine for me? |
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| Author: | dfan [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Nikolas73 wrote: So, any other suggestions? I'm still looking for more information on "100 Tips for Amateur Players," and I might throw in "How Not to Play Go" considering it is only $10 - has anyone else read these books? Thanks. I like Yuan Zhou's writing a lot, but How Not to Play Go is really short - like 32 pages. The material in it is good, but it's only three games, plus if you're a member of the AGA you already get similar game commentaries of his in the newsletters. I do really like his Understanding How To Play Go, which is 7 or so games of his annotated for kyu level players, and Understanding Dan Level Play looks like more of the same. If you are looking to spend 10 extra bucks at Slate and Shell, I think Come Up to Shodan is a better choice. |
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| Author: | Koffein [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Quote: -I've also looked at "Invincible: The Games of Shusaku." This looks like an interesting book, but the price ($50) throws me off. I've heard the book is better for dan-level players, and I feel I could get more for $50 out of some other books. "invincible" is the perfect choice for every go player from ddk to dan. the games are explained very well. this book is worth every single $ (or € in my case). if you buy it now, you can read it again when you are dan and still learn a lot. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Get the two "Train Like a Pro" books. They're great. |
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| Author: | judicata [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
I was working through Tesuji some more today. Some of those problems just kill me. |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Kirby wrote: Get the two "Train Like a Pro" books. They're great. For the OP's level (6k), I don't think those books are so appropriate (in my opinion, they are for shodan+). |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Araban wrote: Kirby wrote: Get the two "Train Like a Pro" books. They're great. For the OP's level (6k), I don't think those books are so appropriate (in my opinion, they are for shodan+). My bad... But still get them as an investment for the future
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| Author: | Nikolas73 [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Thanks for the advice, everyone. It looks like I will be buying: [*]Attack and Defense [*]Tesuji [*]Fundamental Principles of Go [*]Possibly Graded Go Problems for Beginners, volume 3 if I have any extra money leftover [*]Possibly Lessons on the Fundamentals of Go, as I have a giftcard for an online retail store that sells it. (Edit - It appears I might be adding "Life and Death" to the list now...) And on my "to buy later" list (maybe in the summer, or when I start improving a lot): [*]Invincible: The Games of Shusaku [*]Train Like a Pro [*]Possibly 100 Tips for Amateur Players (still looking for more info on this one...) [*]Graded Go Problems for Beginners, volume 4 (hmm, I can't get the "list=" to work...) Thanks again for the help. Nik |
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| Author: | Bartleby [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
I have some comments, mostly on 100 tips for Amateur players. I am about the same level as you. (5 kyu KGS on my most active account.) 100 Tips for Amateur Players Volume 1 Volume one has about 70 pages on 4-4 and 3-4 jeongseok (josekis), 60 pages on openings, and about 50 pages on "training." The treatment of josekis is modern but very selective (obviously there is only so much you can do in 70 not very dense pages), and there is less explanation than in other joseki books. I found this portion of the book less comprehensible than 38 Basic Josekis, although I am sure it is more up-to-date. The section on openings covers some general principles and some very brief discussions of some popular openings (sanrensei, Chinese Opening, Kobayashi Opening, and a 4-4, 3-4 opening where Black playes a small knight's enclosure of the 3-4 corner on his third move). I thought this section was pretty well done but it's a very brief treatment. "Opening Theory Made Easy" does a much better job of covering opening principles and contains a lot more material, and "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki: the Korean Style" takes a more thorough look at a much larger number of openings. The last section on "training" is a look at some specific tesujis (sacrifice, shortage of liberties, cutting, connection, some corner tesujis), with answer and failure diagrams. This section reminds me of Basic Techniques of Go in that the concepts they are allegedly teaching are probably known to anyone who isn't an absolute beginner, but some of the problems are actually a bit difficult (at least for me). The problems in this section are quite good but the treatment of tesujis is not nearly as good as in "Tesuji" from the Elementary Go Series, or even the treatment in Basic Techiques of Go. All in all, I thought this book was worth going through but the coverage is not very complete (this book is really a sampling of the topics covered) and there are probably better books out there for learning all three topics covered. 100 Tips for Amateur Players Volume 2 I also have Volume 2 but have only really glanced at it so far. The first section on life & death didn't look that interesting (it's basically just 11 life & death problems with answer and failure diagrams), but the second section on invasions (11 examples of common invasions with success and failure diagrams) looks interesting, as does the third section on attacking (11 examples of attacking). However, "Attack and Defense" covers both of these topics far more thoroughly. Comparing 100 Tips for Amateur Players with Intermediate Power Builder Volumes 1 and 2 It might be useful to compare the two "100 Tips" books with "Intermediate Level Power Builder" (ILPB) Volumes 1 and 2. (I have both volumes of ILPB but I have only read about one-third of the material. Some of it is a bit advanced for me at this point.) There is quite a bit of overlap in the coverage (ILPB covers choice of joseki, openings, and invasions in Volume 1, and attacking in Volume 2). ILPB seems to target a slightly stronger audience, but also contains a lot more material and has (in my opinion) much better explanations than 100 Tips. ILPB is also much more readable. (100 Tips for Amateur Players is rather dry.) Basically, if you buy both Attack and Defense and Tesuji, you probably don't need a lot of the material in 100 Tips. And if you are looking for some supplemental materials on openings, invasions and attacking, that are targeted at a slightlly more advanced level, then ILPB Volumes 1 and 2 are probably a better choice because they are better written and contain more material. Tesui and Attack and Defense Are Great Books that You Can Read Multiple Times Both "Tesuji" and "Attack and Defense" which are on your list of purchases are fantastic books with lots of material and should keep you busy for a while. I have been through these two books and got a lot out of both of them. At the same time, I feel like I mastered significantly less than 50% of the material in each (probably more like 25%) and that I can still get a lot of improvement from re-reading them. Simply stated, these two books probably offer some of the biggest bang for the buck you can get from any go book. |
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| Author: | Andreas [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
About "Invincible": I like invincible very much, and have read it several times, but I dont have the impression I learned much out of it (maybe I have but didnt notice). The openings and joseki in the book are rarely played nowadays, and the high-level fighting going on is mostly over the head for mid-level amateurs. What I love about the book is the historical perspective, giving insight into go in Edo period Japan, and showing classic games. Its a "must read" for the dedicated go player, but not primarily a book for improving Your go at kyu level. About "Attack and Defense", "Tesuji" and "Lessons in the Fundamentals": With these 3 You cant go wrong. Studying life and death from a book is also a good idea, but "Attack and Defense" and "Lessons in the Fundamentals" cover their important topics better than any other English-language book I know. |
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| Author: | Nikolas73 [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
Thanks again everyone, I sent the order yesterday. Attack and Defense, Tesuji, Life and Death, Graded Go Problems vol. 3 and Lessons on the Fundamentals of Go are all on the way. I ended up not buying Yilun Yang's "Fundamental Principles of Go" as shipping cost a lot more than I thought it would (I was counting on Amazon's free shipping for some of the books, but apparently this is not available in Canada). Helel wrote: More about "Invincible": As for me at 5k I can only add that I enjoy this book very much, and that there is more to go than getting as strong as possible for every dollar. This is cultural history and quite a gem. Actually for those that can afford it, I would like to recommend the hardcover version. It's dustcover, the beautiful ribbed red cloth, the nice binding, and the weight in the hand makes it a very treasured possession of mine. (And if you can't afford it: Steal it!  )As for the rest I agree with the others in this thread. (Except with Kirby, with his reasoning you might as well buy Igo Hatsuyoron  ) I agree culture is an extremely strong part of Go. I became interested in Go history after spending two weeks or so writing up the history section on my website (link in sig). I will definitely have Invincible in mind the next time I go shopping for Go books. Is Igo Hatsuyoron actually published, with answers/details, etc.? I found the problems on Tasuki's Tsumego site - yikes! I will wait until I improve a few stones before trying those again... Bartlyby, your post was really helpful. I was not even aware of "Intermediate Power Builder" and I will also take a look at it in the future. For now I should have plenty to read... thanks everyone. Edit - Of course I ordered the books from Kiseido one day *before* they had their sale in May  . Maybe I will still get a discount - still waiting for them to arrive...Nik |
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| Author: | azazil [ Mon May 10, 2010 12:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Buying some Go books, suggestions? |
There is an English book which contains part of the Igo-hatsuyoron, but honestly don't waste your money. The problems are out of the question for almost all amateurs. Invincible is a wonderful book, but commentary (which is the reason you're buying it right?) is not for kyu players in my opinion. - Az |
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