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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #21 Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 1:49 am 
Gosei

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Perhaps we have identified a missing book here: "How to Correctly Study Go".

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #22 Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 3:18 am 
Judan

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Charles Matthews wrote:
"tesuji knowledge" as a substitute for my "technique of the game"


This is not what I say.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #23 Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 4:15 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Perhaps we have identified a missing book here: "How to Correctly Study Go".


If we look at other fields, we will soon come to the conclusion that there is more than one way to skin a cat. And also to another conclusion: that, in every field. there are people who insist there is only one way to skin a cat.

I'm of the multi-skinning school. I have my own preferred way of doing things, of course, but I find it useful to share it with others, in the hope that it will spur them to look for different ways to do things, usually more in line with their own other interests.

In that spirit, I will give another example that will illustrate my door-and-key example above.

This is an old chestnut, so you may well know it. But, if you don't, the task is to memorise the following sequence maybe not instantly but very, very quickly (5 seconds?). I think this can be seen as facing a long sequence of moves in a go variation, with many branching points. You don't have to memorise that permanently, but you do have to memorise it pro tem in order to play it out confidently.

TUWXIJNOKLLMEFTUWXIJNOKLLMEFLMIJTUTULMEFSTTUABRSHIOPWXIJWXOPNODEEFRSWXHIABTUYZOPUVABRSEF

TUWXIJNOKLLMEFTUWXIJNOKLLMEFLMIJTUTULMEFSTABRSHIOPWXIJWXOPNODERSWXHIABTUYZOPUVABRSEF

if you are in the habit of looking for patterns and associations, you will notice that every letter is followed by the letter that follows it in the alphabet. If you then strip out those following letters, you get the following list: TWINKLETWINKLELITTLESTARHOWIWONDERWHATYOUARE

You can now recreate and recite the original line instantly. And you can also recite the rest of the long "variation" with equal facility: WAYABOVETHESKYSOHIGHLIKEADIAMONDINTHESKY...

It is my contention that the same pattern-searching approach can be used in studying local go positions. Once these patterns are spotted, working out what to do next is much facilitated. There are Japanese books that point the way forward in studying this way. One series that may be be possible to obtain was a collection of All Abouts: All About the Hane, All About the Slide [suberi], All About Watari, and various others. Another approach is Yoda Norimoto's "Sujiba Riron" *Sujiba theory - much harder but maybe more in tune with pro thinking). There are quite a few others. They don't seem all that popular but my guess would be that that is because they demand hard work of the reader. Many readers just want to be spoon-fed with lists or algorithms or proverbs. Many (like me) don't want that but don't want the hard work either. Catch 22.

That, in part, is because patterns, associations, intuition building etc only take you so far. You still have to evaluate the lines you discern and you have to get the timing right, etc, etc. Go is tough.

Still, I think I could write the book "How to Correctly Study Go" in under 5 seconds, but it wouldn't be at all popular. It would just have three words: Work, work, work. There could also be a de luxe edition: Work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work.. with a Go Wisdom appendix.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #24 Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 5:04 am 
Gosei
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RobertJasiek wrote:
No, that is not why to study tesuji problems but that is why to do tactical reading. When there are no tesujis, tesuji knowledge does not apply. Tactical reading during tesuji / techniques problems is too partial by far to enable good tactical reading (or to enable suitably trained subconscious thinking) in problems that are much more difficult because of prevailing ordinary moves.


This is a bit abstract. Do you have an example of a life and death problem from a real game for which tesujis or known patterns are useless?

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #25 Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 5:40 am 
Judan

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Before I find time to show some not too easy examples, consider the most basic connections / jumps / extensions. For each, one must know the connection ststus, and knowledge of tesuji or techniques is often immaterial, especially for esrly endgame moves. Position relative to the edge or nearby stones can be relevant. Therefore, pure shape memorisation may not be enough but tactical reading is mandatory. Often done within 1 second, but the point is that absence of tesuji and techniques is the norm rather than the exception.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #26 Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 7:12 am 
Oza

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pure shape memorisation may not be enough but tactical reading is mandatory. Often done within 1 second, but the point is that absence of tesuji and techniques is the norm rather than the exception.


I think it is only you who is talking about "pure shape memorisation." Other people talk about patterns, not shapes, and about pattern recognition or understanding. And memorisation is distinct from building up intuition.

Most people here will know thousands of people. When they see them, they recognise their faces. They have never actively memorised them, and have certainly never used a list of faces (unless they are in the KGB or the like). We just learn to recognise them. We do this reliably most of the time, even if we struggle to put a name to a face. But if asked to describe, in their absence, a person we know, most of us - men especially - struggle immensely. You often can't remember what colour eyes or hair some people have, what shape their face is, and so on. But walk round the corner and bump into them, you know at once: "Oh, hello, Robert!"

Tesujis can be handled like that. Indeed, for most of us (I'd say 98.3562%), they are handled like that. But because we haven't met as many of them as we have people - by a long shot - we are not quite as good at it in go. But we still use tesuji knowledge in far more than 3% of our moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #27 Posted: Wed May 10, 2023 8:46 am 
Judan

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Patterns or shapes - all related and I hardly care whether you are entering semantics of these words. If patterns is a superordinate of shapes - fine.

Ca. 3% - is what I got by counting, but admittedly only for a few games, for which I classified moves as dominated by being ordinary, requiring reading or being tesuji. Of course, there are those books in which quite a few called-by-me ordinary moves the author labelled as tesuji. Do your own count and be suprised how many moves are ordinary endgame moves...!

(Sure, I have played that one game in which, during one phase, each move was a tesuji. The exception confirming the rule. And of course it was me whose local life and death problem in a won game had three successive empty triangles as the only correct solution establishing life.)

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #28 Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 2:33 am 
Judan

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The problems in my books are invented by me, modified from shapes occurring in games or a hybrid of both. I do not recall for every problem which creation style I used but almost all problems could occur in games.

Tactical Reading, problem 40, page 181:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to move
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X . X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . . . . . . O .
$$. . . X X . X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


If White can only achieve a partial success, it is also necessary to verify that Black cannot prevent it, White cannot kill all and White cannot achieve a better partial success. If White can achieve nothing, verify it.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #29 Posted: Thu May 11, 2023 12:11 pm 
Gosei
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I'd agree there is no tesuji in this problem, however I think the solving process involves several known patterns.

When looking at this position I'd make the following observations:

1) Black would like to play like in the diagram below because a and b (resp. c and d) are miai, and e makes an eye in gote.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X e X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O a b . 2 . c d O .
$$. . . X X . X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


2) Exception to the above: in the diagram below (or with :w1: and :w3: reversed) White removes an eye but Black can continue with e.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X e X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O a b . 2 . 3 . O .
$$. . . X X 1 X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


3) So if White can do something, it must start like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X . X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . . 1 . . . O .
$$. . . X X . X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


4) The following shape is a seki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X O X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O X . O O O . X O .
$$. . . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #30 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 12:17 am 
Judan

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Once you imagine the seki pattern as a final shape, the sequence creating it must still be constructed, which is easy enough. You make the claim "So if White can do something, it must start like this", which will be discussed later. For John's advice to start with a final shape, there is another one to consider:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X X X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O . . . O . . . O .
$$. . . X X O X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


When studying related variations, one quickly notices that Black lives (your (2)) or the seki occurs (your (3)). Hence, not every final shape is good guidance.

I await others' analyses (unless having consulted the book).

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #31 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 12:36 am 
Gosei
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Yes I did consider the shape you mentioned and quickly concluded that this kills Black. I didn't post all my thoughts, just wanted to say that we don't use brute-force reading but use shortcuts.

That said I'm not excluding that I misread something, I do that all the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #32 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 1:06 am 
Judan

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In almost all cases, brute-force is wrong because there are shortcuts and pure techniques application is wrong as insufficient. Tacticsl reading lies in between. Your mistake is refusal to apply it to confirm or refute your quick and dirty analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #33 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 2:03 am 
Gosei
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As I said I did consider variations but didn't post everything.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X 3 X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O 6 . 7 1 5 . 4 O .
$$. . . X X 2 X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


1) As said in my first post, if White doesn't play at :w1: then Black lives with two eyes.
2) If Black doesn't play at :b2: then White will play there at move 3. Black can make one eye in 1 move at one place but needs two moves to make a second eye at each of two different places, so Black is dead.
3) If White doesn't play at :w3: then :b4: will be played there and whatever the move :w3: was, White can't prevent the capture of :w1: which makes a second eye so Black lives with two eyes.
4) If Black doesn't play :b4: there or at :b6: then White can reduce eyespace and Black is dead.
5) If White doesn't play at :w5: then Black will play move 6 there and make two eyes.

So my conclusion is that White can make a seki in gote and not better than that.
I did check each step 1-5 above. However the fact that I check carefully doesn't mean I don't get lost in the tree and miss a variation.

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #34 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 3:25 am 
Oza

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Quote:
In almost all cases, brute-force is wrong because there are shortcuts and pure techniques application is wrong as insufficient. Tacticsl reading lies in between. Your mistake is refusal to apply it to confirm or refute your quick and dirty analysis.


My interpretation of this is that you have, at last, come round to something like the position that most other people have already held. I have not read your books so I can't be sure you haven't stated the above already yourself, but previously, on this forum, you have a given a strong impression to me that you believe in an almost total primacy of tactics and not just something in-between. Similarly, you have misrepresented the views of other people by inserting the word "pure". I don't recall anyone recommending that you only use patterns, shapes or proverbs to solve problems. Indeed, we all know the classic case highlighted by James Davies. The quasi-proverb "the L shape is dead" is fantastically useful, yet many kyu players know that but still can't actually kill the group. They need more practice with reading. Furthermore, James himself points up the fact that the quasi-proverb is just a starting point that needs follow-up examination, because it may have legs, liberties or hanes. That's extra work but it's a helluva lot less than starting by making a list of all possible starting moves and examining each line of the tree branches in turn, i.e. "pure" brute-force.

By adding other inappropriate words you are further misrepresenting the other side's view of techniques, proversb or whatever you want to call them. "Quick and dirty analysis?" "The L-shape is dead" is certainly quick, but dirty? My choice of extra adjective was "fantastically useful." I'll leave it others to decide for themselves which end of the spectrum is more accurate

I also find you are lax in the use of the word "patterns," oddly enough by being too strict in trying to pin the word down. Less mathematically minded people are happy with loose definitions, and, when they need to be more precise, they add extra words. For example, we may get "pattern recognition," and in that particular some people may even add extra words to show what sort of "recognition" they mean. You may remember Bill Spight doing precisely that.

I personally like to think of "pattern understanding" but I don't try to push the phrase because it doesn't seem quite satisfactory even to me. I have tried previously to explain some of my thinking by simply talking about recognising people's faces. However, here. as a discussion point I will elaborate a little on that purely in terms of the position you contributed.

In that position, at first glance, I did not see any significant static "shapes" beyond a vague element of symmetry. But the dynamic "patterns" that I did not so much "see" or "recognise" but "understood" instantly were three, not directly visible but implicit in the "flow" of the stones (i.e. in the suji). They were (1) the long line of points that I knew were potentially long enough to allow a seki, (2) what I and some others call "three eyes" - others may detect the same ideas under the heading of miai, and (3) what I call the bent elbow.

I won't try too hard to explain the bent elbow here because I did that in "Carefree and Innocent Pastime," my translation if the Xuanxuan Qijing, but in jlt's diagram below it would mean imagining a black move at a or d, and if White then gets a move below a or d, a shape can potentially arise where White can create a false eye with a throw-in at b or c. It doesn't work here, which I can decide by simple inspection rather than reading. I tend to think of bent elbows high up in the order of my first thoughts simply because they were so common in the approx. 750 problems of XXQJ, and that the frequency of that (dynamic) pattern has been massively vindicated, for me, in looking at problems elsewhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. . . . . . . . . . .
$$. . . . . O O O O . .
$$. . O O O X e X X O .
$$. . O X O X . X . O .
$$. O . X X X X X . O .
$$. O a b . 2 . c d O .
$$. . . X X . X X . O .
$$. O . . O O O O O . .
$$. . O . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I think you will also see from those three first guesses what I mean by (three) final shapes, which is rather different from the sort of final shape you cited - a shape that would never, ever occur to me.

Even with those potential final shapes we still have to do "in-between" reading, and in may case I start with "play in the centre of symmetry" and then see if that can be made to tie in with the possible final shapes I have predicted, i.e. trying to link the two ends.

In that process, I did not, in my own mind, ever use the word "tesuji" though I would argue that it is implicit in both "play in the centre of symmetry" and "bent elbow." I may use it, however, if I have to give a final description of the solution, and so for both reasons I would argue strongly against the view that there is no tesuji in this position.

The key component of tesuji is suji, which conveys a sense of flow - here, of course, the flow of the stones. The flow can either have already happened and so formed interesting shapes, just as molten lava has solidified into real rocks, or it can be an existing flow, like molten lava, and the interesting thing is predicting where the flow might lead.

Here, I would argue, we have mainly the former type of solidified flow and there is just a tiny bit of soft, sticky lava left lapping round the edges. In other positions, there can be rivulets of lava, either gushing or trickling hither and yon. But in each case we can detect a flow. I think it was Kajiwara who had another good way of looking at this: the stones go walking.

So we are left with the te (= hand) bit. This word is added to a small number of words in Japanese, mostly common adjectives but also verbs and nouns, to convey an extra nuance of meaning. Some examples are tebaru, tegatai, tebiroi, teatsui, tedori, tebikaeru. Teatsui is very common in go, and tebiroi (from hiroi = wide) also has a noticeable presence. The nuance added is not precise but is in the realms of care, precision, meticulousness or clarity. We actually have almost exactly the same thing in English. When you see a sign in a shop that says "hand-made fudge" you are assumed not to think of something made with dirty fingernails or widely variable quantities, but something made with tender loving care.

So, a tesuji is the part of the flow made with extra meticulousness or care or thought. That explains why it is often explained as the move at the vital point (White 1 here) or a brilliant move, or even something that stands out and so is worthy of a name. That's all OK but really only covers the te bit - you can't forget the suji. My impression is that some people here are forgetting the suji bit. And since good flow is meant to be implicit in every move (at least in a pro game), it is obvious that the frequency of tesujis must be rather high. And since tesujis can often be identified because of the te bit, it follows that are also lots of types - and also that they are learnable and studiable and so recognisable (but not necessarily memorisable as "shapes").

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #35 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 3:55 am 
Judan

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John Fairbairn wrote:
you have a given a strong impression to me that you believe in an almost total primacy of tactics


Hardly anything could be farther from the truth. You do know that my primacy is generally applicable correct knowledge, especially such that is fast. Where more specific knowledge is inapplicable, effortful skills (endgame calculation, positional judgement, tactical reading etc.) are needed. For local problems, the related skill is tactical reading and incorporates often applicable general shortcuts. For specific cases, specific knowledge can sometimes accelerate much. Of course, nakade knowledge and semeai knowledge have this potential but also...

Quote:
"the L shape is dead"


...shape knowledge when applicable correctly.

Quote:
it's a helluva lot less than starting by making a list of all possible starting moves and examining each line of the tree branches in turn, i.e. "pure" brute-force.


You are doing it again: you just can't refrain from painting the brute-force threat as typically demanding a list of all possible starting moves and examining each line of the tree branches in turn, can you? Such is the rare exception. As a start, almost all variations lead to basic shapes, such as nakade, that do not require reading to the ends.

Quote:
"Quick and dirty analysis?"


Learners must sometimes be awaken by clear, appropriate words.

Quote:
"The L-shape is dead" is certainly quick, but dirty?


What is the relevance? (I have said nothing of the kind for the L-shape.)

Quote:
I also find you are lax in the use of the word "patterns," [...]


You are strong at meta-discussion, but is it faster than just doing tactical reading?

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #36 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 5:23 am 
Oza

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Quote:
You are doing it again: you just can't refrain from painting the brute-force threat as typically demanding a list of all possible starting moves and examining each line of the tree branches in turn, can you?


The first few examples that came up when I googled:

1. Brute Force Algorithms are exactly what they sound like – straightforward methods of solving a problem that rely on sheer computing power ...

2. In computer science, brute-force search or exhaustive search, also known as generate and test, is a very general problem-solving technique and algorithmic ...

3. Brute-force search is a general problem-solving technique and algorithmic paradigm that involves generating a list of all the possible candidates

4. A brute force approach is an approach that finds all the possible solutions to find a satisfactory solution to a given problem.

5. A brute force algorithm solves a problem through exhaustion: it goes through all possible choices until a solution is found.

6. The brute force approach is a guaranteed way to find the correct solution by listing all the possible candidate solutions for the problem.

Are we on the same planet?

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Post #37 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 5:35 am 
Gosei
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My impression is that your disagreement is purely semantic, but your methods of problem solving are not so different.

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Post #38 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 6:12 am 
Judan

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Brute-force is not defined by language dictionaries but is the method of informatics on graphs that inspects each possible move / edge in a graph / tree walk. In other data storage domains, the term can have an analogue meaning so that dictionaries feel obliged to confuse us by most-generic definitions. In general, we might say that brute-force is complete exploration.

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Post #39 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 6:14 am 
Gosei

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Should we go back on topic? No? Oh please let's go back on topic. I spent some time translating the Romanian text GO-ul in Competitii by Radu Baciu. I found it quite interesting to read, but recognize that is far from perfect. It goes rather too deeply into certain variations, the instruction it offers is probably from a 1960s point of view, and the 'japanese-terminology' is certainly broken. The publishers butchered some of the diagrams, which of course was a crime.

In French language, I think Noguchi Motoki and Dai Junfu have written some very good books. (Le langue des pierres & chuban) see http://praxeo-fr.blogspot.com/p/le-jeu-de-go.html

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 Post subject: Re: Good go books by amateurs
Post #40 Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 6:17 am 
Gosei

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Brute-force is not defined by language dictionaries but is the method of informatics on graphs that inspects each possible move / edge in a graph / tree walk. In other data storage domains, the term can have an analogue meaning so that dictionaries feel obliged to confuse us by most-generic definitions. In general, we might say that brute-force is complete exploration.


Perhaps we could say that brute force is uncultured thinking. You haven't learnt such a solution before, nor how to solve it, so you have to start from scratch without and rules to guide you. I don't think that many of us use that approach.

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