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Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7532		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
From time to time, an opinion is expressed that players of certain amateur ranks would be too weak for writing books. The opposite makes more sense:

Elwyn Berlekamp, 10 kyu has written the good book Mathematical Go Endgames. Is 10k the minimal level for an author to write good go books on specialised topics?

James Davies, 3d in the European Go Championship 1994
http://www.eurogofed.org/results/congress/egc94m.txt
wrote good books, from which generations of Western players learnt. In particular, I have learnt more from his books than from any professional player book author.

Richard Bozulich, who, I have been told, is of about my playing strength, has written books, which quite a few consider to be good.

There are other examples.

Should all this evidence that amateurs can write and have written good books be ignored?

Compared to Asian professional authors, Western amateur authors have two advantages: they know how amateurs think and they know how Western players think.
Author:  oren [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
I think Western amateurs can write great books. I would add Yuan Zhou to the list as well.

I think the one important thing you could learn in communication is that Asian professional writers are going to be significantly stronger than you. They have also had decades of teaching amateurs to become stronger and have a good idea where students should focus their study. You can come off a bit egotistical in your statements about your theories, and you don't have the experience of the teachers in Asia.

I would also add that there are many amateurs in Asia who teach very well. Hong Seisen moved from Korea to Japan and led a VERY successful school. Later on he was given a pro rank from Kansai Kiin. I saw an interview and his sentiments were that Japanese previously had not focused enough on tsumego and tesuji.
Author:  Bonobo [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
IMHO this all depends on the recipients’ needs and ability to comprehend those books. Maybe I can reply, indirectly, with that (allegedly) Turkish proverb:

Learn what your teacher teaches you, not what he lives!

A little astray, a similar question for teaching Go, “Minimal strength for teaching Go?”, just as wrong as asking “how big is a pixel?”, because the answer is: “depends upon …”. For example, my playing strength is somewhere 12k-ish, quite measly compared to most people here. Yet I teach a lot of people (I’d never ask for pay, though, mind you!). But why am I that impudent? Cause I live here out in the country, I’m the strongest Go player within 20-25 km I know of and in our local Go club; I also instruct the local school’s Go workshop; so why should I NOT do it?! (visualize the interrobang character ;) ) Isn’t it about having fun and getting stronger and help others getting stronger, too? So, if such a miserable DDK player like me gets former non-players to DDK and hooks them on Go this can’t be bad, right?

To get back to books … it depends on both the author’s comprehension of Go and on their ability to convey this in written language (plus probably diagrams). I also believe that the probability for teaching somebody stronger something new shrinks with rising difference between strengths, but will not be zero.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
People of all kinds of strengths can write books. I've seen a 10 kyu write a fine children's introductory book. His long experience of working with children was in that case a far more important skill than his go strength.

There are topics for which professional strength is required, mostly when a lot of raw reading power is required. In depth reviews of professional games, for example, or composing difficult go problems.
Author:  ez4u [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
Use what talents you possess; the woods would be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best.
- Henry Van Dyke
Author:  badukJr [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
I will only trust books from Asian authors, the game came from there, they know what they are doing.

There is enough material from there that I will never 'run out' and resort to Western Amateurs.
Author:  Javaness2 [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
Author strength is not measured in arbitrary ranks assigned by oneself on the basis of perceived Go strength but rather in terms of quality of writing.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
I've seen a 12K give some very good advice to a 20+K in the game analysis subforum here on L19. I've also dealt with a pro who couldn't explain how to pour water out of the proverbial boot. He was strong, but had no clue how other people thought - at least not how westerners thought.

IMHO, the minimum for writing a book is twofold:
1) Knowing more than your intended audience.
2) Knowing how your audience thinks.
A good grasp of grammar probably helps too.

But when all is said and done, the final arbiter is sales. If lots of people buy your book, and keep buying your books, you're a good author; otherwise, not.
Author:  p2501 [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I've seen a 12K give some very good advice to a 20+K in the game analysis subforum here on L19. I've also dealt with a pro who couldn't explain how to pour water out of the proverbial boot. He was strong, but had no clue how other people thought - at least not how westerners thought.

IMHO, the minimum for writing a book is twofold:
1) Knowing more than your intended audience.
2) Knowing how your audience thinks.
A good grasp of grammar probably helps too.

But when all is said and done, the final arbiter is sales. If lots of people buy your book, and keep buying your books, you're a good author; otherwise, not.

That sounds reasonable.
Author:  tchan001 [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
When I see the picture posted by trout of young Lee Sedol and her Ama 6D older sister ( viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7523 ), I probably wouldn't look forward to a book written by this talented sister at that age.
Author:  speedchase [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
tchan001 wrote:
When I see the picture posted by trout of young Lee Sedol and her Ama 6D older sister ( viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7523 ), I probably wouldn't look forward to a book written by this talented sister at that age.

Actually I think her sister is 6dan now, not then.
Author:  billywoods [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
RobertJasiek wrote:
they know how Western players think.

I hope you don't mind me taking a brief detour from the topic and asking - what is the difference between Western and Asian players?
Author:  speedchase [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
billywoods wrote:
I hope you don't mind me taking a brief detour from the topic and asking - what is the difference between Western and Asian players?

Western players have learned from Western Literature and people who teach in the West. Asian players have learned from Asian literature, and Asian teachers. There are also different attitudes
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
billywoods wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
they know how Western players think.

I hope you don't mind me taking a brief detour from the topic and asking - what is the difference between Western and Asian players?


Please, PLEASE, tell me this was a joke, and that you just forgot the smiley.
Author:  billywoods [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
speedchase wrote:
Western players have learned from Western Literature and people who teach in the West. Asian players have learned from Asian literature, and Asian teachers.

A lot (most?) of our literature is translations of Asian literature, though I can't really compare it to Asian literature on the whole, because I can't read it. Anyway, the translations we have don't seem too different to the Western literature that exists, at least to me. Likewise I don't see much difference between the Asian professionals who teach in the West and Western teachers, and I've seen a fair few of each. Am I missing something?

speedchase wrote:
There are also different attitudes

There are different approaches to learning in general, but I can't see how that would affect the writing of go books. There are definitely 'styles' of play (even at the weak amateur level) that vary by country, but we're all still learning the same things and trying to get to the same place. Is this what Robert was talking about? I'm not really sure what you mean here.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Please, PLEASE, tell me this was a joke, and that you just forgot the smiley.

No? Feel free to explain why my question was so stupid.
Author:  crux [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
One important issue is recognizing the limits of one's own knowledge. A 10kyu who recognizes that there's a lot he doesn't even know he doesn't know is probably a better teacher than a 5dan who says things like "my games are as good as Takemiya's" and doesn't have a good grasp of the language he's trying to write in.
Author:  xed_over [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
billywoods wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Please, PLEASE, tell me this was a joke, and that you just forgot the smiley.

No? Feel free to explain why my question was so stupid.

This topic comes up quite frequently, and is highly debated. Many feel that there are differences between how Asians and Westerners think and learn. While many others feel there are no differences and should be banned for broaching such racially charged topics, further dividing our community on this old debate.
Author:  Bonobo [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
xed_over wrote:
[..] Many feel that there are differences between how Asians and Westerners think and learn. While many others feel there are no differences and should be banned for broaching such racially charged topics, further dividing our community on this old debate.
I understand you’re just trying to show two perspectives, but … “racially charged”?

IMNSHO it has got nothing to do with the obsolete concept of “race” but rather with cultural differences which encompass a LOT: education, philosophical imprinting, priorities, etc.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
billywoods wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
they know how Western players think.

I hope you don't mind me taking a brief detour from the topic and asking - what is the difference between Western and Asian players?


Please, PLEASE, tell me this was a joke, and that you just forgot the smiley.


:) :) :) :) :) :)

I haven't seen Jiang Jujo 9p for a few years, but back then he told me that when he first came to the U. S. he would tell players something, and to his surprise they would ask why. Players back home did not do that. Jujo adapted how he teaches, and feels that he is a better teacher because of that.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Author:  Polama [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Minimal Author Strength Needed for Writing Good Books
I'd be willing to bet a good author could start with no knowledge at all of Go and produce a reasonable book, just by reviewing the existing literature and reorganizing and re-communicating it. The combinatorics of Go is impressive, but pales besides the word choice and organizational decisions in a book. Sometimes a fresh presentation of existing ideas is all it takes to spark new thoughts in readers' minds. I wouldn't expect a perfect book, although sometimes a misguided claim by an author can be just as useful, as it pushes you to figure out why he's wrong.

They certainly couldn't produce, say, a book of professional game reviews, but a discussion of concepts and strategic principles interlaced with simple examples seems feasible.

What I've found is that in any topic it's rare to find somebody with deep, accurate knowledge. But if you're willing to sift through good and bad ideas, you can find little gems of insight are held by most people in this world.
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