It is currently Tue May 13, 2025 3:51 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Rumour on Reading
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:26 am 
Judan

Posts: 6270
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 797
Quotation reference:
viewtopic.php?p=172152#p172152

Krama wrote:
Nobody every told me how to read, as it is something you must figure out yourself. But it is damn hard to read moves ahead if they don't seem natural or simple. [...]
It seems that you can give a good guideline for anything related to go study, but when asked on how to practice reading the answer is always, to read.


Exactly. There are countless of problem books but they hardly teach how to read, and their readers are supposed to already know it. Currently, in the English literature, there are only the short Reading chapters in First Fundamentals (ch. 10) and Tesuji (Davies, ch. 1). However, I have good news for you: I am writing a book that is solely devoted to learning how to read!


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by 6 people: Bantari, Bonobo, joellercoaster, karaklis, RBerenguel, snorri
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:42 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 706
Liked others: 252
Was liked: 251
GD Posts: 846
I haven't read "First Fundamentals" but the Davies' Tesuji treatment is mostly just depth-first search of a finite graph. That's great when the problem is closed and simple enough for one's skill level, and no doubt it's a skill worth working on, but it doesn't characterize most game positions which are more open and evaluating common lines of play starts to be become useful.

I'd be interested in learning more about how reading relates to risk management, given the reality that our reading skills and available time in a game are both limited. For example, I have seen commentaries to the effect of "black might consider continuing here, but the position is complex and there is no way to know whether black can get out in sente, so black played over here instead."

Such a comment is really just a frank admission that the author's (and maybe also the players') reading is limited, but there is still a need to manage the position somehow.

Another example: when reading out a sequence in the mind's eye, there could be a path where at some point the opponent can cut---the shape makes it looks a bit unreasonable to do that, but due to limited skill and/or time it is hard to see what happens after that cut. Many players would just play it out and hope for the best. :rambo: For beginners, almost every position is like this and they have no choice. But once some reading skill is developed maybe some better options become available. Maybe there's a way to fuzzily consider: what's the worst that could happen if my opponent saves that cutting stone? and compare it to: what's the worst that could happen if reach that position and suddenly realize I have to defend that cut in gote? Or maybe: which extra moves could appear later that could make this sequence obviously good for me?

So to me, both improving the raw skills and also being able to manage the position while acknowledging limited reading are important. I've read very little in English on either topic.


This post by snorri was liked by: Ortho
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:33 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 443
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
snorri wrote:
I haven't read "First Fundamentals" but the Davies' Tesuji treatment is mostly just depth-first search of a finite graph. That's great when the problem is closed and simple enough for one's skill level, and no doubt it's a skill worth working on, but it doesn't characterize most game positions which are more open and evaluating common lines of play starts to be become useful.

I'd be interested in learning more about how reading relates to risk management, given the reality that our reading skills and available time in a game are both limited. For example, I have seen commentaries to the effect of "black might consider continuing here, but the position is complex and there is no way to know whether black can get out in sente, so black played over here instead."

Such a comment is really just a frank admission that the author's (and maybe also the players') reading is limited, but there is still a need to manage the position somehow.

Another example: when reading out a sequence in the mind's eye, there could be a path where at some point the opponent can cut---the shape makes it looks a bit unreasonable to do that, but due to limited skill and/or time it is hard to see what happens after that cut. Many players would just play it out and hope for the best. :rambo: For beginners, almost every position is like this and they have no choice. But once some reading skill is developed maybe some better options become available. Maybe there's a way to fuzzily consider: what's the worst that could happen if my opponent saves that cutting stone? and compare it to: what's the worst that could happen if reach that position and suddenly realize I have to defend that cut in gote? Or maybe: which extra moves could appear later that could make this sequence obviously good for me?.


In my experience, it's impossible to read any position to much depth if you don't engage in aggressive pruning of variations. The only way to prune effectively, however, seems to be to train your subconscious to make particular moves stand out to you for consideration. When you look at the board in some position, say an early one so that there are less stones to take in, with experience your eye tends to be drawn to certain areas or points on the board. I've heard people describe them as shining, but to me they just stand out more than the others. Often, and more often as I get better, they are good candidate moves for consideration, but I didn't perform any mental calculation to make them appear. Once they're there, I can read through what I might expect my opponent to do, but again, their options get limited by what stands out in my mind as reasonable. It's also frequent that common situations get broken into chunks rather than individual moves, which has benefits and drawbacks. It helps me read farther, but I need to be careful to consider other alternatives in the process as well.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the bulk of reading is done by my subconscious, followed up with conscious verification of limited sets of moves. I don't have the time to read large open-ended areas out exhaustively, and I doubt too many other people do either. There are documented examples of professional games where both players played out a certain area, where there was a variation that completely destroys one side or the other. Both players missed the variation, because it involves a bad-shape move that happens to work in that particular situation, and generally the stronger the player, the harder it is for them to consider automatically.

The questions you posed, and particularly the last one, are all good questions to be considering as you play as well. In Zone Press Park, one of the things that O Meien speaks of are finite moves and infinite moves. Finite ones he defines as moves where the variations can be calculated by the players to a certain conclusion. Infinite ones are those with too many variations or otherwise too much complexity for either player to be able to discern what will happen. He stresses that (my interpretation) it's important to consider the surrounding positions to get an idea of whether the result of an infinite move will lead to an overall favourable result for one side or the other, or if the position should favour a balanced result. As for your last question, this is a good thing to consider about any position, as it helps you generate a plan for the rest of the game that might get you stones in the right places for these sequences to start working. You can't have a plan that doesn't involve aims, after all.


This post by skydyr was liked by: Ortho
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:35 pm 
Oza

Posts: 3723
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4671
Quote:
Currently, in the English literature, there are only the short Reading chapters in First Fundamentals (ch. 10) and Tesuji (Davies, ch. 1).


Not exactly, because there are very many chess books that discuss the topic, and also quite a few devoted entirely to it. One that is sitting on a shelf in front of me is "How to calculate chess tactics" by Valeri Beim which devotes over 170 large pages to it. I haven't read it and am not likely to, but the blurb claims that Beim "strikes a balance by explaining how to use intuition and logic together to solve tactical problems in a methodical way. He also offers advice on when it is best to calculate 'like a machine', and when it is better to rely on intuitive assessment." A very large part of the book is dedicated to "The technique of calculating variations", and seems to be partly about how to scan trees in your head, and partly about selecting candidate moves, but there is also a section on what to do if the situations read out are unclear or complex. The focus appears to be the body of the game (opening and middle game) rather than checkmate combinations, meaning you have to learn to evaluate as well as read.

Although the details of the evaluation must differ, this seems to cover everything a go player needs. While there is not a huge amount of Japanese material on this subject, what I have seen is a very close fit with the chess material. The only significant difference at the tactical level is that go allows for longer forced sequences than chess, which means reading depth can go further, at least nominally, and for this reason also there is greater reliance on suji (or haengma).

You could argue that go is different in having more scope for tenuki and in that mistakes are not often as fatal as in chess, but the very criticality of correct reading in chess surely implies that the chess writers have had a more urgent need to come up with good techniques. One way or another it would seem foolish to ignore them.

For those that have the Kitani volumes of the Gendai no Meikyoku series, there is an excellent appendix there illustrating how Kitani thinks reading should be done, and he was one of the deepest and best calculators ever.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:08 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 207
Liked others: 6
Was liked: 65
Rank: EGF 5 dan
GD Posts: 29
tl;dr

Cheers,
Vesa


This post by Vesa was liked by: snorri
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:14 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6270
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 797
There are

- strategic reading with incomplete tactics and possible subconscious thinking by those liking it and
- detailed tactical reading, which should be explicit to reveal definite answers.

The core of tactical reading is the same for every two-player, complete-information, zero-sum game. In particular, it is the same for Chess and Go. However, techniques (e.g. for simplifications / pruning) accompanying the core can differ. They are rich and important in Go; I do not know about Chess, but I would guess that the more dynamic nature of pieces' placements spoils some simplifications applicable in Go.

What are Kitani's key ideas for reading?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:21 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
One of my favorite lessons is Inseong Hwang's 1-2-3 reading video. It has helped tremendously for finding the right way to solve problems.

http://www.yunguseng.com/

Unfortunately have to be a member to get access to all the videos.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #8 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:44 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 507
Location: Germany
Liked others: 176
Was liked: 46
Rank: terrible
OGS: paK0, paK0666
Universal go server handle: paK0
oren wrote:
One of my favorite lessons is Inseong Hwang's 1-2-3 reading video. It has helped tremendously for finding the right way to solve problems.

http://www.yunguseng.com/

Unfortunately have to be a member to get access to all the videos.


I haven't seen the video(not a member), but from a free lecture that I found somewhere it seemed like the 1-2-3 method is more on what to read than how to read. (Though i agree, it was super helpful)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #9 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:58 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
oren wrote:
One of my favorite lessons is Inseong Hwang's 1-2-3 reading video. It has helped tremendously for finding the right way to solve problems.

http://www.yunguseng.com/

Unfortunately have to be a member to get access to all the videos.


What's the basic idea?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:34 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1326
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 153
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Bill Spight wrote:
What's the basic idea?

Don't know about InSeongs' method.

The basic idea behind a probably similar method (mentioned by another semi-professinal) was to think about playing "3" first.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #11 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:03 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
Bill Spight wrote:
oren wrote:
One of my favorite lessons is Inseong Hwang's 1-2-3 reading video. It has helped tremendously for finding the right way to solve problems.

http://www.yunguseng.com/

Unfortunately have to be a member to get access to all the videos.


What's the basic idea?


If your obvious move gives your opponent a good move in response, you will often find a good move by playing the move that your opponent would play.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #12 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:27 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1326
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 153
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Ortho wrote:
If your obvious move gives your opponent a good move in response, you will often find a good move by playing the move that your opponent would play.

If so, what is the "3" good for ?

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #13 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:34 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 133
Location: UK
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 24
KGS: 4kyu
Cassandra wrote:
Ortho wrote:
If your obvious move gives your opponent a good move in response, you will often find a good move by playing the move that your opponent would play.

If so, what is the "3" good for ?


It's free here: http://www.advancedstudyroom.com/3rd-in ... go-easier/


This post by Ortho was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, daal
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #14 Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:28 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1639
Location: Ponte Vedra
Liked others: 642
Was liked: 490
Universal go server handle: Bantari
RobertJasiek wrote:
Quotation reference:
viewtopic.php?p=172152#p172152

Krama wrote:
Nobody every told me how to read, as it is something you must figure out yourself. But it is damn hard to read moves ahead if they don't seem natural or simple. [...]
It seems that you can give a good guideline for anything related to go study, but when asked on how to practice reading the answer is always, to read.


Exactly. There are countless of problem books but they hardly teach how to read, and their readers are supposed to already know it. Currently, in the English literature, there are only the short Reading chapters in First Fundamentals (ch. 10) and Tesuji (Davies, ch. 1). However, I have good news for you: I am writing a book that is solely devoted to learning how to read!

Hmm... isn't it like painting a picture to teach a blind person about colors? ;)

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!


This post by Bantari was liked by: Knotwilg
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #15 Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:07 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2432
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 360
Was liked: 1021
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Another attempt: http://senseis.xmp.net/?HowToRead

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #16 Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 6270
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 797
This webpage teaches too little about how to read, contains bad or wrong advice and confuses specialised L+D reading techniques with general reading techniques.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #17 Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:32 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2432
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 360
Was liked: 1021
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
It's a wiki

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #18 Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:23 am 
Judan

Posts: 6270
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 797
Yes, and since the same few people cannot spend 10 hours per wiki page to correct it, the editing work should be done by dozens of different people.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #19 Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:33 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 43
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 16
Rank: AGA 3D
KGS: 2D
Tygem: 6D
RobertJasiek wrote:
What are Kitani's key ideas for reading?


I'm also quite curious about this.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #20 Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:42 am 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
Was liked: 443
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
MMaestro wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
What are Kitani's key ideas for reading?


I'm also quite curious about this.


I seem to recall someone writing that he would start reading with the move he thought least likely to work, and then work his way up through more likely candidates, rather than the other way around. I couldn't say any more than that, though.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group