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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #81 Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:06 pm 
Lives with ko

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Location: Pasadena, USA
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Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Game 45 (7 komi, NZ rules) is our first game with an early (move 3) 3-3 invasion, soon followed by a second one that develops similarly. A very complicated game - and another tie. Our current tally is 10 black wins, 15 ties and 20 white wins. https://online-go.com/review/625577

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc All previous games with these first 2 moves continued at a or b instead of C3.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_45.sgf [2.45 KiB]
Downloaded 235 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #82 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:30 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 59
Was liked: 9
Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
No interest in these games whatsoever... Not on the OGS forums, either, nor on Reddit. Do y'all think there's another place where people might be interested?

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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #83 Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:51 pm 
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I guess it's a lot to keep up with, particularly when the level of play is so high as to be beyond the casual viewer. :)

The occasional videos are still cool, particularly when there's human-digestible insights about specific moves and such.

If I had more time personally, I'd dive into a lot more of other fun stuff myself too:

* How has the frequency of different joseki preferences and opening raw policy changed across time over the course of a run?
* Pick a bunch of example positions in the middle of joseki or joseki-like sequences and a bunch of configurations for the surrounding corners. Are there positions where the choice depends greatly on the neighboring corners a lot, and are there human-understandable patterns to it?
* Are there easily-calculable metrics by which pure-AI-selfplay games are extremely strikingly different than human games?
* Between KataGo, LZ, ELF, MiniGo, etc, where are the largest differences between their preferences for various moves, that aren't simply revealable as a mistake?
* How often does KataGo's preference for a move clearly change as a function of the komi putting it ahead versus behind?
* If it's possible to obtain a large SGF joseki dictionary to just run analysis over - are there any josekis where a really surprising move is recommended that people haven't yet seen before?
etc.


This post by lightvector was liked by: Maharani
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #84 Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:41 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
Location: Pasadena, USA
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Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
In game 46 (7 komi, NZ rules), white builds a 40-point lower side territory while black gets three and a half corners. This game is our sixteenth tie. https://online-go.com/demo/view/632201

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Game 45 continued at a instead of Q3.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_46.sgf [2.18 KiB]
Downloaded 169 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #85 Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:29 pm 
Oza
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Maharani wrote:
No interest in these games whatsoever... Not on the OGS forums, either, nor on Reddit. Do y'all think there's another place where people might be interested?

I am not sure why you expect people to be interested. These are katago self-play games. Why should people find that interesting? Anyone with a PC can generate their own or download millions from the katago site.

The depth of analysis is impressive but, what are the take aways? What are the lessons offered to the reader? How does the evaluation change as the playouts increase and what is the significance? Correct me if I am wrong but, I think you only included analysis in the OP. Since then, you only posted bare sgf's.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #86 Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:01 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
Location: Pasadena, USA
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Was liked: 9
Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
ez4u wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but, I think you only included analysis in the OP. Since then, you only posted bare sgf's.


I've always posted short descriptions, and five games have been commented on by dan players who seemed to enjoy going through the games. Basically all I'm looking for are more dan players interested to skim through some games and comment on a few moves. :)

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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #87 Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:33 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 59
Was liked: 9
Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Game 47 (7 komi, NZ rules) sees black spending four moves to surround white's 4-4 stone by move 21. Of course, that stone ends up living, anyway. Black itself makes six living groups. After it realizes that white is gonna win by 2 points, black starts wasting ko threats and white wins by at least 12 points. https://online-go.com/demo/view/638422

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 14 previous games continued at a instead of D16.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_47.sgf [1.86 KiB]
Downloaded 112 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #88 Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:37 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 59
Was liked: 9
Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Here's an OGS demo board with all of the fuseki I've explored in my KataGo high-playout (NZ rules, 7 komi) games so far. Included are all branching moves up to game move 36 in which (the amount of playouts for a branching move) divided by (the difference in winrate between that branching move and KataGo's favourite move) was at least ~ 6 million (don't ask, I'm neurotic). https://online-go.com/demo/view/646694

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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #89 Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:24 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 59
Was liked: 9
Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Game 48 (7 komi, NZ rules) was a complicated game with fighting all over the place. Black starts wasting ko threats near the end and loses by at least 12 points. https://online-go.com/review/646658

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 14 previous games continued at a, and 2 games at b, instead of O3.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_48.sgf [1.83 KiB]
Downloaded 80 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #90 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:13 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 59
Was liked: 9
Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
In game 49 (7 komi, NZ rules) black develops a large right side in exchange for its lower-right corner. Even more trading occurs later on. You know the gist by now - another beautifully balanced tie. https://online-go.com/demo/view/651112

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Game 45 continued at a instead of R16.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X B . . |
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$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_49.sgf [2.16 KiB]
Downloaded 44 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #91 Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:20 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 143
Location: Pasadena, USA
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Rank: OGS 11 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Game 50 (7 komi, NZ rules) sees black getting two large corners plus two living center groups. Of course it's a tie. Our tally currently stands at 10 black wins, 18 ties and 22 white wins. https://online-go.com/review/658057

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Game 46 continued at a instead of P17. At some point, I'll split off a game at b.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a W O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
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$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_50.sgf [2.29 KiB]
Downloaded 22 times
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