I've played GnuGo (latest version on "10") several times and can never win. I've lost by .5 two or three times, but usually I'm down by 20.

I think I'm going to quit playing it for awhile so I don't pick up bad habits. That said, what does this pattern say, if anything, about my ranking? I need to play more games on KGS/IGS to get my ranking situated there, but I'm curious about what my experience with GnuGo says.

What size board?

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KGS 4 kyu - Game Archive - Keyboard Otaku

Ah, important detail. 19x19. Also no handicap, 6.5 komi, me as Black.

I also must admit, the .5 losses were those when I tried to slow down and consider the whole board position--at least every so often.

I thought GnuGo is rated about 6-8kyu these days, but I could find any stats anywhere.

It tells you to play more fast games with humans.

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FusekiLibrary, an opening library.
SGF converter tools: Wbaduk NGF to SGF | 440 go problems | Fuseki made easy | Tesuji made easy | Elementary training & Dan level testing | Dan Tutor Shortcut To Dan

I thought so, too. But it plays very passive compared to nowadays KGS-players, so it might be that you'll be able to constantly win against GnuGo but still are unable to stabalize a ~6k rating on KGS (like me).

That's why I would suggest playing against humans in the first place. They tend to play more exciting and by far more irrational, so you learn how to cope with that.


0.5 points loss reminds me of my games against MoGo... I still can't beat it!

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Once you know how to beat GnuGo, it's not too difficult. Two tips:

- Stay away from local fights
- Try to establish big moyos

Engines like GnuGo profit from short time controls. If you take yourself more time, it is easier to win against it. On turn based servers (OGS) GnuGo is only 12-15k.

If nothing gets killed gnu go often wins by 0.5 point because the computer is great at counting during endgame, and GnuGo is programed to win, not to win by the biggest possible margin.

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Laurens
Go school: freegame's Teaching School
Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.

Really? My understanding was that was true for Monte Carlo bots because of the way they choose moves on winning probabilities, but GnuGo isn't Monte Carlo and I haven't heard that before for GnuGo

hmmm maybe I was wrong. It has been a while since I was actually "interested" in bots (I had one running on KGS as well for some time)

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Laurens
Go school: freegame's Teaching School
Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.

I found this page on SL, which suggest the current version of GnuGo on KGS is about 6kyu. But the page is apparently out date, because the GnuGo bots listed haven't played in awhile, according to the KGS archives.

Well, whatever. It isn't a big deal, but I don't want to misrepresent my rank to others. I usually say I'm about 16kyu, but I'm beginning to believe I'm stronger (not just because of GnuGo, though). I'll just try to play more games this weekend and it will work itself out.

I also do not think my instincts are well-developed, so when I play fast and "instinctively" I am several stones weaker. I know this is true for everyone, but I think it may affect me more than average. If just discipline myself to think before each move, it is like I'm a different Go player.

It seems to me like I just need to play more games.

yeah, if you can almost beat GnuGo in an even game, you're a lot stronger than 16kyu

GnuGo is passive, even among its fellow bots.



If you are offline, and want to play against a bot, I highly recommend using MoGo, Fuego or any other Monte Carlo based bot. While they usually play quite strange openings that are rather influence oriented, they are far superior in the middle game compared to Gnugo. And when I say superior, I don't just mean in skill, but in their habits, shapes and general ideas of balance.

You will learn far less bad habits from a Monte Carlo based bot than you will from Gnu Go.



Disagree on this. In fact, starting fights is one way to get ahead vs GnuGo, because it tends to back off, tenuki or fail to consider the strategic consequences in fights.

As for establishing big moyos. While there is some truth in that, it is just one way of exploiting the passiveness of GnuGo, and generally not the best way in my opinion.

Well, I was 6-7k on KGS end of January when I played last there. Recently I have reactivated an old account to experiment with fast/blitz games (10 min) though actually I dislike playing blitz. Doing this my rank got settled at 10k.


Interesting. You are some 6 stones stronger than me, maybe this is the reason you are stronger at local fights than the program. When I tried that, I got outplayed all the time, so that's why I discovered that it is weak at moyos. I'd like to experiment with new tactics, so maybe you'd like to share your ideas?
This is the way I usually beat GnuGo.

I guess it is also a little different with GnuGo, because it plays the same whether I play fast or slow. At least in blitz games, both players have to play fast. Just a thought.

I've recently got a bot running on KGS to see how it did, running GnuGo 3.8 - its playing strength from the games it has played so far puts it in the range of 5-10k at the moment.



This is an interesting point, apparently there is an experimental setting for GnuGo to try and play with a focus on moyo but since it would make the engine weaker it is not enabled by default. I may recompile it and see what effect it has at some point.

Here's a fun game I played the other day against GnuGo with 6 stones - you can decide for yourself, but I agree that it feels like it can't handle complicated fights - particularly kos, which it seems to make a repeatedly bad job of.

Interesting match. I discovered that you often tried to wedge through an ikken tobi. I thought that this often causes bad shape...

It does, but it's also in quite a few josekis. It generally leads to lots of split groups - I find GnuGo plays passively slow, and then when you create a cut fight like wedging through an ikken tobi, it goes a bit crazy instead of solidly connecting the important bits, and then picks odd times to tenuki. Time after time it can be ripped off in this way.

Normally the proper shape invasion of the 4th line 3 point jump is in the middle, also on the 4th line, but I feel this illustrates more GnuGo's failure to handle complicated fights well.

I see this thread is a few years old, but I'm sure that GNU-Go has only gotten better since then. I would like to offer my thoughts on GNU-Go, from a novice/beginner's standpoint. Perhaps most of you are very good at this game, but I would hope you would be able to see my thoughts from back when you all were not so good.

GNU-Go is far too difficult. This is absolutely a turn off for new players. There are two main issues here. first, GNU-Go almost always plays a move that will gain the most territory possible. A novice is not capable of moves like these. Second, GNU-Go will leave you one move away from capture in almost all situations. For a novice, it's hard to discern. While GNU-Go begins to play elsewhere, gaining strength and territory, the novice continues to play for a capture only to have GNU-Go drive the dagger in deep at the last moment, breaking the line.

It's saddening, as a novice/beginner, to even use GNU-Go and instead of making me a better player it only makes me never want to use it again, and further, give up attempting to learn any further.