Life In 19x19 :: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?

What's Smartgo AI's level on 19x19 on your iPad,
and what's your current level ? Curious.

Now, as for my level, I'd be interested to know too.

I essentially only ever played go against SmartGo, so I don't know!

but really you need to start playing humans as well.

[..] I love how I can start and interrupt a game absolutely anywhere, anytime.

lebigot wrote:

[..] I love how I can start and interrupt a game absolutely anywhere, anytime.

Correspondence games ;-)

Bonobo wrote:

lebigot wrote:

[..] I love how I can start and interrupt a game absolutely anywhere, anytime.

Correspondence games ;-)

Good point!

I should have added "and resume".

You're all giving good advice, but not answering his question ;-)

Amelia wrote:

You're all giving good advice, but not answering his question ;-)

Thank you for the support: I feel less alone in noticing that!

After nine great months spent fighting against the SmartGo AI on iPad (mini 2), I am outgrowing its AI. Now, I am considering moving to Little Go (Fuego), Champion Go HD (Crazy Stone) or Igowin HD (Many Faces of Go). Which one(s) do you recommend?

My needs are:

1) Get an offline AI opponent that can accompany my progress for as long as possible (without paying extra like offered in Champion Go HD, at least at first).

2) Being able to add comments to the moves while playing would be great. Little Go cannot do it. Igowin HD can, but can it do this mid-game? What about Champion Go HD?

If you want to play humans some day you're not going to be very good at it if you just play bots because bots and humans play rather differently and a lot of what works against specific bots on the iPad won't work against humans.

Boidhre wrote:

If I understand correctly, the problem is that every AI/player is more or less strong in each facet of the game: some programs or humans might simply never punish some mistakes, or might never attack in some way, etc.—this goes beyond consciously exploiting the weaknesses of a specific AI or player, it's just that some things never happen in their games. So, if I understand correctly, the problem is not so much an AI/human dichotomy than the necessity of playing against many different players so that fewer and fewer facets of the game are left uncovered. Is this correct?

Author:	lebigot [ Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:16 am ]
Post subject:	iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
After nine great months spent fighting against the SmartGo AI on iPad (mini 2), I am outgrowing its AI. Now, I am considering moving to Little Go (Fuego), Champion Go HD (Crazy Stone) or Igowin HD (Many Faces of Go). Which one(s) do you recommend? My needs are: 1) Get an offline AI opponent that can accompany my progress for as long as possible (without paying extra like offered in Champion Go HD, at least at first). 2) Being able to add comments to the moves while playing would be great. Little Go cannot do it. Igowin HD can, but can it do this mid-game? What about Champion Go HD? Any suggestion and remark would be greatly appreciated!

Author:	EdLee [ Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:04 am ]
Post subject:
What's Smartgo AI's level on 19x19 on your iPad, and what's your current level ? Curious.

Author:	lebigot [ Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
I don't know what SmartGo's level is (except that I'm beating it at its second highest level on an iPad mini 2, which is a relatively fast iPad, with 16 seconds per move for the AI). Its author also said it did not know it's level (on Twitter recently). Now, as for my level, I'd be interested to know too. I essentially only ever played go against SmartGo, so I don't know!

Author:	Boidhre [ Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: What's Smartgo AI's level on 19x19 on your iPad, and what's your current level ? Curious. <ignore, may have used a weaker setting by accident, UI is unclear>

Author:	Boidhre [ Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
Lebigot, Champion Go is a lot stronger than Smart Go but really you need to start playing humans as well.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11594	Page 1 of 2

Author:	S2W [ Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
lebigot wrote: Now, as for my level, I'd be interested to know too. I essentially only ever played go against SmartGo, so I don't know! Skip the Ai then and get the pandanet app - you'll learn more playing against people (and get a rank too!).

Author:	lebigot [ Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
Boidhre wrote: but really you need to start playing humans as well. I keep reading this piece of advice: I will explore this. Now, I also need an AI, hence this thread: I love how I can start and interrupt a game absolutely anywhere, anytime. So, I will play against humans, but I am still very much interested in answers to the original question.

Author:	Bonobo [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
lebigot wrote: [..] I love how I can start and interrupt a game absolutely anywhere, anytime. Correspondence games

Author:	lebigot [ Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
Bonobo wrote: lebigot wrote: [..] I love how I can start and interrupt a game absolutely anywhere, anytime. Correspondence games Good point! I should have added "and resume".

Author:	Boidhre [ Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
lebigot wrote: Bonobo wrote: lebigot wrote: [..] I love how I can start and interrupt a game absolutely anywhere, anytime. Correspondence games Good point! I should have added "and resume". Playing 10 - 20 or so games at once gets around this.

Author:	Amelia [ Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
You're all giving good advice, but not answering his question

Author:	lebigot [ Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
Amelia wrote: You're all giving good advice, but not answering his question Thank you for the support: I feel less alone in noticing that!

Author:	Boidhre [ Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
lebigot wrote: Amelia wrote: You're all giving good advice, but not answering his question Thank you for the support: I feel less alone in noticing that! Neither Champion Go nor Igowin HD allow you to make comments as you play (as far as I can see) however you can export the sgf to SmartGo Kifu and add comments later if you want to review the game. Or you can mirror the game in SmartGo Kifu or another program and add comments as you (some people do this with Dragon Go correspondence games). Both programs are substantially stronger than SmartGo. You're still better off playing humans as well though! So do correspondence and bot play. I'll give you a game on http://www.dragongoserver.net/index.php if you like.

Author:	lebigot [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
I ended up getting Champion Go HD (Crazy Stone), for some tangential reason: it is the only one that offers landscape mode too. Now, this may seem like a detail, but in my experience developers who make efforts and offer some basic but important user interface features tend to have stronger products. I guess that it is not totally a coincidence that this program has been updated more recently than Igowin HD, too. In any case, it is hard to find much information on how the three programs I was citing compare, so I had to take the plunge.

Page 1 of 2	All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	Boidhre [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
Well, at least they're not expensive!

Author:	lebigot [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
lebigot wrote: After nine great months spent fighting against the SmartGo AI on iPad (mini 2), I am outgrowing its AI. Now, I am considering moving to Little Go (Fuego), Champion Go HD (Crazy Stone) or Igowin HD (Many Faces of Go). Which one(s) do you recommend? My needs are: 1) Get an offline AI opponent that can accompany my progress for as long as possible (without paying extra like offered in Champion Go HD, at least at first). 2) Being able to add comments to the moves while playing would be great. Little Go cannot do it. Igowin HD can, but can it do this mid-game? What about Champion Go HD? I did not succeed in finding enough information on these three programs on the web or here, so I ended up buying both Igowin HD and Champion Go HD, and checking out Little Go (after also considering GinseiIgo, which is apparently maybe the strongest of all). The answer to my question is clear: Igowin HD allows players to add comments during a game, anywhere, and goes up to 3 kyu (calibrated against real players), which is higher than SmartGo's level (all four programs are currently stronger than SmartGo). Igowin HD is thus more appropriate for studying, I find: I can reflect on games while I play them, and jot down some notes that help during reviews. It even allows game branches to be explored during the game, which nicely complements the note taking feature (e.g., for writing down a sequence that one has in mind). The auto-level feature and real-rank features are also convenient. I don't like the fact that it is limited to portrait mode, because the iPad can be harder to hold this way and because the keyboard is small (for writing down notes during a game), but it's a small price to pay. Champion Go HD might be a good program to use after reaching the limits of Igowin HD: not only is it apparently stronger (and clearly stronger with the in-app purchases of games against 5–6 dan bots), but it also offers a limited-time mode (10, 20, 30 seconds), which is more geared towards human-vs-human games (servers, competitions)—I still want to spend as much time as I want on moves: qualitative progress comes before quantitative progress, I believe. I was surprised to see how little knowledge about these programs can be found on the web. There is not enough clear information about their features and limitations to allow users to make a clear choice based on their needs. Hopefully the above details will help some.

Author:	Boidhre [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
Don't take the kyu ratings on IgoWin HD very seriously. They were way off KGS kyu levels (which are on the "weaker" side of things) when I played it last. Remember your goals here, if you just want to play bots those two are good choices and maybe look into Crazy Stone for PC, it's much stronger than the basic app on iPad. If you want to play humans some day you're not going to be very good at it if you just play bots because bots and humans play rather differently and a lot of what works against specific bots on the iPad won't work against humans.

Author:	i3ullseye [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
Not sure how helpful this comment might be to you, but I feel your pain. I get a very real sense that a lot of player discount AI completely as a solid learning method. Some seem to think other than having a teacher play a game with you, and comment as you go, everything else is inferior. Books, software, problems, etc.... only live play, and especially with a teacher, matters. I wonder if that mind set hasn't undermined much of the great available resources by not getting effective use and reviews out there for those of us who do well with books and software and such, or may be limited to only that. I get that playing other players is awesome.... it is a 2 player game after all, and playing people is what it has been about for thousands of years. But, when you are a weaker player (I hate the term beginner... you can play for years and still suck, and I am not ashamed to say I suck) sometimes people online can see you as ignorant or rude. You find great people online, but you also run into a lot of people who aren't so nice. Against an AI, I can play out every last move in 'known' dead territory to see what happens since I didn't realize it was dead. In live games, this tends to make people often not want to play you again.

Author:	lebigot [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
Boidhre wrote: If you want to play humans some day you're not going to be very good at it if you just play bots because bots and humans play rather differently and a lot of what works against specific bots on the iPad won't work against humans. If I understand correctly, the problem is that every AI/player is more or less strong in each facet of the game: some programs or humans might simply never punish some mistakes, or might never attack in some way, etc.—this goes beyond consciously exploiting the weaknesses of a specific AI or player, it's just that some things never happen in their games. So, if I understand correctly, the problem is not so much an AI/human dichotomy than the necessity of playing against many different players so that fewer and fewer facets of the game are left uncovered. Is this correct?

Author:	Boidhre [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: iPad go AI: which one to use after SmartGo Kifu?
lebigot wrote: Boidhre wrote: If you want to play humans some day you're not going to be very good at it if you just play bots because bots and humans play rather differently and a lot of what works against specific bots on the iPad won't work against humans. If I understand correctly, the problem is that every AI/player is more or less strong in each facet of the game: some programs or humans might simply never punish some mistakes, or might never attack in some way, etc.—this goes beyond consciously exploiting the weaknesses of a specific AI or player, it's just that some things never happen in their games. So, if I understand correctly, the problem is not so much an AI/human dichotomy than the necessity of playing against many different players so that fewer and fewer facets of the game are left uncovered. Is this correct? That's one important aspect of it, though the weaker the hardware the bigger the problem is with playing just AIs. It's not the only issue but essentially yeah, there isn't a problem playing AIs if you're exposed to a lot of human opponents regularly as well.