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 Post subject: Re: PhoenixGo Installation and vs. Leela zero, vs. DeepZen 7
Post #21 Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:02 pm 
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@Tryss:
"the CPU is mostly irrelevant for LZ, the GPU is what's important,"
is it a good assessment for go game as a whole, or for that matter any NP/PSpace/Expspace complete problem if applicable? moreover, DeepZen 7 does not employ GPU at all. or i should say full machine AI (zero) depending on GPU to get ahead of human experience dependent AI.

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 Post subject: Re: PhoenixGo Installation and vs. Leela zero, vs. DeepZen 7
Post #22 Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:10 pm 
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@Bill Spight:
As far as I know endgame problem differs from other stages of the game mathematically. thanks for showing all or almost all variation, my gut feeling tells me 309 is not necessary, and i will take chance to win.

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 Post subject: Re: PhoenixGo Installation and vs. Leela zero, vs. DeepZen 7
Post #23 Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:57 pm 
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kyotosato wrote:
@Tryss:
"the CPU is mostly irrelevant for LZ, the GPU is what's important,"
is it a good assessment for go game as a whole, or for that matter any NP/PSpace/Expspace complete problem if applicable? moreover, DeepZen 7 does not employ GPU at all. or i should say full machine AI (zero) depending on GPU to get ahead of human experience dependent AI.


The most computationally expensive (by far) of LZ algorithm is the evalation of moves by the neural network. And GPU are much much more efficient at this than CPU.

Why? A GPU is built to do a huge numbers of (simple) parallels computations : it needs to compute the color of each pixel of the screen each frame.

But huge numbers of simple computations in parallel are exactly the kind of stuff you need to do to evaluate a neural network.

A modern CPU has between 4 and 8 independant cores, a modern GPU has over a thousand (but they are much simplier and not as flexible as the CPU cores).

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 Post subject: Re: PhoenixGo Installation and vs. Leela zero, vs. DeepZen 7
Post #24 Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:26 pm 
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kyotosato wrote:
about 7.5 or 6.5 komi problem, understood. still the sample game results are valid so long as white won. but it is beyond the point that i am questioning the komi setting of either 7.5, or 6.5 or even 5.5 are too high for a fair game setting.

on a second thought,
"He means that both bots play will play like there's 7.5 komi no matter what komi you set, so why using 6.5 komi?"
this is not a correct assessment while applying a real game situation. the value function to optimize next move is based on the current points advantage/disadvantage, which means the 6.5 or 7.5 komi setting does matter to generate each moves. The training is training patterns to store in neural nets, as far as i understand regardless the setting to 7.5 or 6.5 komi setting. or isn't it? i am not sure now.


quoting a poster from a different thread:

pnprog wrote:
Quote:
In the Champions League there are 3 Leela networks. They don't care about the komi, all results of them are due to resignation. So playing with a komi of 7.5 would have lead to the same results, right?
Not necessarily. In fact, Leela Zero should only lose by resignation, if she lose 0.5pt, then there is definitively something wrong. Same goes for AQ, Leela and Ray.

But let's take and example, LZ (black) vs Zen (white), komi=6.5pt
20 moves before the end of the game, black (LZ) is about to win by 0.5pt, seems good for LZ. But because LZ is trained for 7.5pt komi, she believes she will loose by 0.5 (her value network gives a 23% win rate), so she starts desperate attempts at complicating the game, play weird end game, lose points here and there, then her win rate drops bellow 20% and finally she resigns.

Zen was suppose to loose, but he ends up winning, Leela Zero resigns from a completely lost position.

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 Post subject: Re: PhoenixGo Installation and vs. Leela zero, vs. DeepZen 7
Post #25 Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:00 pm 
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And on CPU vs GPU::

macelee wrote:
My new laptop comes with a NVidia card. It is the so-called Optimus setting: the integrated GPU with the Intel processor handles day to day jobs, and the NVidia card can be used to do more intensive jobs.

...

But I have no idea how to use the GPU on this machine to run Leela Zero. Has anyone tried this before?

I was troubled by the poor performance of using the Intel CPU to run LZ. I knew it would be poor. But I was quite shocked when I tried LZ with a 10-year-old NVidia card on a very old desktop PC - the old machine was about 4 times faster.

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