It is currently Tue May 17, 2022 8:01 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Mirror Go as white
Post #1 Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:40 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 361
Liked others: 54
Was liked: 260
Rank: UK 2d Dec15
KGS: mathmo 4d
IGS: mathmo 4d
It is well known that playing mirror go with tengen as black doesn't work well since tengen can't pay for komi if everything is symmetric.

Similarly playing mirror go as white is very difficult to refute. There are ladder examples but they tend to be very complicated. To the point where it can be disrespectful to mirror as white.

From what I've tried against katago, mirroring as white keeps the game even for a very long time but katago tends to strategically set up a 100 point semeai until it finally plays tengen which connects with several diagonal moves making a 1 eye kills no eye situation. It seems very difficult to mimic this as a human playing black since you have to play every move accurately while setting up the semeai.

Perhaps a much more advanced way to bully Akira.

Give me triangles strong enough and I can measure the universe.

When Venus transits, we can align our clocks to one event. By measuring the angle to flat Earth at two places far apart on Earth, we can compute the distance to Venus and the Sun.

 Post subject: Re: Mirror Go as white
Post #2 Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:45 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 713
Liked others: 113
Was liked: 856
Rank: maybe 2d
Note that you'll get different behavior depending on whether you are playing KataGo directly via a program that talks to it using GTP and has it play moves via normal GTP protocol, or instead playing using a program that asks it to "analyze" the board in real time via kata-analyze or lz-analyze (i.e. like Lizzie when in interactive mode), and then takes the top move from the analysis to play on the board.

KataGo has some logic to respond to mirror Go, that very gently nudges its normal behavior in the direction of doing the kind of thing you mentioned, and much more forcefully nudges it in harder cases (such as Black mirroring with reverse komi). But by default this logic is only enabled in play and not in analysis, because this nudging also biases the reported winrates in various messy ways. This logic is also a bit better in the latest release 1.10 than in prior versions.

Mostly programs use the correct protocol corresponding to what they want to do, but a few applications probably use (abuse?) the "analysis" for play as well. If you care to, you can also turn it on in analysis as well though, check out the options in the the gtp config.

 Post subject: Re: Mirror Go as white
Post #3 Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:01 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 69
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 15
I am happy enough to play ladder variations since they give an immediate advantage, although it wont be hige but goood enough

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group