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Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
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Author:  Sverre [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
We don't yet have computer programs that play go as well as a decent amateur player, unfortunately. They say that playing too much against programs will build bad habit because programs have different systematic weaknesses from human players. I would recommend you try playing online on KGS against both stronger players and other beginners - check out the Beginner's Room. As far as doing go problems try something like goproblems.com or the problem pages at Sensei's Library.
Author:  jts [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
Hi, lunixer. Some thoughts:

(i) In Go, you should never feel like you've been crushed. There's a handicap system that's intended to ensure that every game will be fun for both the stronger and the weaker player. (The weaker player should start with a number of extra stones on the board.)

(ii) In Go, we humans tend to review each others' games! You can play a game against another person, get the .sgf file, and post it under "Game Analysis" in this forum. Some things to remember:

    (a) You mentioned in your other post that you've been playing the computer. Because even good computers don't play Go the way good humans do, you'll learn more and get a better review if you play another human being.

    (b) Try to play a fairly slow game... average at least 30 s on each move. That way you'll play a better game and learn more from the comments you get.

(iii) It seems like maybe you're just interested in getting better at Go, in general! In that case, getting your games reviewed is probably less important than doing problems. Have you ever solved chess problems? Go has problems that are a lot like that. They're called tsumego. If you follow that link, you'll see (iirc) a couple hundred problems for you to practice on. Once you've done those, you can ask other go players for suggestions on where to look for more tsumego.

(iv) I'm sure you're familiar, from chess, with opening databases that will show, say, all the branches of Ruy Lopez. For the initial sequences in the corners of the board, there are similar databases that show which opening sequences professional players prefer. For example, look here. You'll probably find these opening sequences ("joseki") interesting, but don't obsess over memorizing them for now - they're not as important as chess openings, and as you get stronger you'll start to understand the reasoning behind the sequences.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

(on preview: what Sverre said ;) )
Author:  daal [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
lunixer wrote:
I am very new to go and am interested in improving my game. Right now it is abysmal and I end every game feeling like I've been lassoed. I just came from chess and am used to having a wealth of computer programs that will play you, tell you if you are making a big blunder, give problems, and otherwise coach. Is there anything like this for Go at any price? Thanks for the suggestions!


Aside from the good advice above, yes there is, and it's free. It might not be exactly what you're looking for, but if you download Drago and a GnuGo engine, you can play against the computer, and have it suggest moves for you. It can also show you "influence regions," tell you what it thinks of the status of your groups and give you a score estimate.
Author:  shapenaji [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
Also, if you're after problems,

try this:
http://goproblems.com

Fantastic site to practice with.

(And I'll just echo what everyone else said. Playing computers, even the best of them, which are now slowly creeping into the dan ranks, is a bad way to get better)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
shapenaji wrote:
(And I'll just echo what everyone else said. Playing computers, even the best of them, which are now slowly creeping into the dan ranks, is a bad way to get better)


Do the top programs foster bad habits on the 9x9? It seems like they are quite good on it, now.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi lunixer, welcome to Go. Try to find nice people to play, for instance, on KGS.
Try to finish 100 games as quickly as you can.
Author:  shapenaji [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
Bill Spight wrote:
shapenaji wrote:
(And I'll just echo what everyone else said. Playing computers, even the best of them, which are now slowly creeping into the dan ranks, is a bad way to get better)


Do the top programs foster bad habits on the 9x9? It seems like they are quite good on it, now.


I suppose on a 9x9 it would make sense, On a 19x19 though, their style of play seems like it would be hard to emulate with good results, they still jump around a lot. I feel like learning from them in their current state would be a bit like learning how to cultivate ADD.
Author:  Stable [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
I just finished reviewing MyGoFriend for the BGA. It's only 9x9 for now, but it's very strong on a home pc and will offer hints on where to play. I've always been a "don't play computers" proponent, but this program didn't seem to play like a computer. It's 19 Euros though, not free.
Author:  shapenaji [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
Helel wrote:
shapenaji wrote:
Also, if you're after problems,

try this:
http://goproblems.com



or this:
http://gochild2009.appspot.com/


Thanks for that one... that's nice!
Author:  Mike Novack [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
darn -- dropped connection and so lost all I had written

a) There are strong "politics" involved so I won't name any particular programs. But since you asked "at any price" will point out that even the most expensive commercial one is under $100US and that's including use on multiple computers, upgrades, etc. (not a "per installation" price).

b) Even the strongest aren't as strong as a modestly strong amateur. As has been pointed out, there is the "bad habits" issue, how severe depending on which program, but in any case a factor only when you have approached the program in strength. At least it is my opinion that you won't learn too many bad habits playing against a program set to be at least several stones stronger than you are (with you taking the appropriate handicap to make a game of it).

c) The programs are different. You will be seeing a lot of over generalizations posted along the lines of "computer programs are" or "computer programs do" or "can't do". You can expect a good one to offer:
1)"why" (reason for move) and perhaps in reverse, give hints -- you may see posted "no MCTS program can do this" -- not true.
2) teach joseki and fuseki
3) present graded problems (like "flashcards"; ones you get wrong reappear more frequently)

d) If you are a rank beginner to go, the "free trial" versions of programs that you need to buy may be striong enough to be of use. Only the lowest playing strength and the easiest problems but that may initially be enough.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
shapenaji wrote:
I suppose on a 9x9 it would make sense, On a 19x19 though, their style of play seems like it would be hard to emulate with good results, they still jump around a lot. I feel like learning from them in their current state would be a bit like learning how to cultivate ADD.

:mrgreen:
Author:  Mike Novack [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
Having seen your first game (what you posted) I am going to differ somewhat in my advice.

Yes, you should by all means play a lot of games against humans of your own strength. What you will learning primarily is trying to make fewer mistakes than your opponent and recovering from your own (the game maybe isn't over yet from that one blunder if both of you are maming many blunders).

But if you get a chance, play humans several stones stronger in handicap games where you will be taught to maintain connectivity of your stones, oppose the connectivity of your opponents, etc.

Second best to that would be playing computer programs set to be several stones stronger than you are. Under those conditions you should be learning more "right" than "bad habits". Since it's not easy to find humans several stones stronger than you willing to give you lots of games this is better than nothing and in my opinion better than just playing players as weak as you are.

You don't need to buy a program given where you are now. Something like gnugo (free software) will be plenty strong enough to thrash you even with a large number of handicap stones. The "bad habit" to avoid learning from this program is "too passive" but at the moment you are so "slow" that by comparison its degree of passivity will seem sheer agression. Do not use any of the programs set weak enough to play against even! (that would accentuate the differences between the way the programs play vs how humans play). Unfortunately I heard at the go club last night that gnugo isn't adjustable (and I don't think you could manage it even with nine stones).

For the time being you can ignore what people are saying about the "strange moves" many of the MCTS based programs make. Even the weakest of these is FAR too strong for you to use as an opponent at the present time. Similarly you can ignore what people are saying about the AI based programs being too passive. But if you want a program that will "instruct" (provide hints, give the go reasons behind the move it just made, etc.) you will probably have to pay for it.
Author:  daal [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
Mike Novack wrote:
Unfortunately I heard at the go club last night that gnugo isn't adjustable ...


Don't believe (and repeat) everything you hear. The gnugo engine can be set from 1 (weak) to 10 (strong).
Author:  Mike Novack [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
daal wrote:
Mike Novack wrote:
Unfortunately I heard at the go club last night that gnugo isn't adjustable ...


Don't believe (and repeat) everything you hear. The gnugo engine can be set from 1 (weak) to 10 (strong).


I had already said on this forum that I had not used this program myself (along with why not). I did say "heard" and the person isn't one of us who made our livings in the "cypher mines" so could be ..........
unclear on the version (all versions can do this? on all platforms?)
doubtful as to how experienced this person is (this is a menu selection? -- for example, we need to assume that average users haven't a clue how to execute programs with runtime parameters)

The person who told me this could most certainly use a somewhat weaker version of gnucash so describe how and I'll pass it on to her.
Author:  daal [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best computer trainer- like they have in chess?
It's an easy to see and apply option called "level" that appears when you choose to play a game against gnugo in all of the host programs that are installed on my computer (drago, panda glgo, and gopanda).
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