Life In 19x19 :: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)

As far as I know a good 5D EGF can compete with a professional player on three stones.

I'm talking specifically about 9p

But ugot a point I guess pro ranks ain't what they use to be. I assume a 9p can give at least 4 stones to 4p and win. Let alone a 4 Dan KGS

Now a days pro is pro.

But 9dan is the highest grade a pro can achieve any amateurs rank shouldn't be a issue with proper handicap 9 Dan should win

You have to be a good 5 Dan to play a 9p with 3 stones

hyperpape
Yes, that kind of underlines my thesis

What we need to keep in mind is that not all that long ago (just a few years) many folks were saying they didn't think any of these programs could get to the point of being able to beat a pro even with nine stones.

PS -- What did you think of the style of play? If you didn't already know, enough to conclude "that can't be a humn, must be a bot." Or was it close enough to how a human might have played to pass that test?

Author:	1986 [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:15 am ]
Post subject:	Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Chinese]SZ[19]HA[6]KM[0.50]TM[2700] PW[ZenTCGA]PB[Zen19S]BR[4d]DT[2011-06-29]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Zen19S [4d\]: GTP Engine for Zen19S (black): Zen version 7.8d9 ]RE[B+14.50] ;B[dp]BL[2699.51] ;B[pd]BL[2699.232] ;B[dd]BL[2698.997] ;B[pp]BL[2698.738] ;B[dj]BL[2698.478] ;B[pj]BL[2698.215] ;W[fc]WL[2693.063] ;B[df]BL[2683.58] ;W[nc]WL[2692.114]C[LightningK [3k\]: who's white this time? ] ;B[pf]BL[2674.024] ;W[jd]WL[2690.137]C[oliu321: chou oliu321: 9p? ] ;B[ip]BL[2659.973] ;W[cn]WL[2684.672] ;B[co]BL[2648.466] ;W[dn]WL[2681.218] ;B[fp]BL[2638.738] ;W[dh]WL[2680.427] ;B[fi]BL[2623.3]C[uranium123 [?\]: W play so fast... ] ;W[fh]WL[2676.938]C[LightningK [3k\]: this already seems better than joanne's game ] ;B[gi]BL[2605.636] ;W[ff]WL[2673.753]C[BongoBob [6k\]: keeping b all cut up :p ] ;B[mp]BL[2590.372]C[oliu321: white apparently has more experience giving handicaps ] ;W[ph]WL[2650.064]C[LightningK [3k\]: he'll need it LightningK [3k\]: hehe ] ;B[ec]BL[2572.898] ;W[fd]WL[2646.737] ;B[cl]BL[2557.606] ;W[dl]WL[2642.324] ;B[dk]BL[2544.734] ;W[fl]WL[2641.066] ;B[el]BL[2532.614] ;W[em]WL[2637.168] ;B[dm]BL[2523.294] ;W[cm]WL[2636.415] ;B[dl]BL[2512.613]C[cdocdo [3k\]: W is so fast!! ] ;W[fn]WL[2635.519]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: I have bet $100 on this game to Colbert Peyote [1d\]: seems w playing during his breakfeast ] ;B[gm]BL[2499.413] ;W[gn]WL[2633.184]C[gogonuts [4d\]: w got a decent start go1986 [11k\]: W+R BOThater36 [4d\]: he knows bots ] ;B[im]BL[2483.088]C[dingogo [1k\]: it seems impossible for zen to win. that would mean zen is about 3p ! ] ;W[hm]WL[2630.741]C[Peyote [1d\]: hope for the destruction of zen LightningK [3k\]: lol, no dingo ] ;B[hl]BL[2473.811] ;W[hn]WL[2629.409]C[LightningK [3k\]: only 2 stones max between weakest and strongest pros ] ;B[in]BL[2464.024] ;W[gl]WL[2628.323]C[gogonuts [4d\]: between pro 1p and 9p not even 2 stones ] ;B[eo]BL[2447.681] ;W[en]WL[2625.984]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: i bet My a Trillion kgs for w LightningK [3k\]: maybe between lee sedol and a soon-to-retire old pro gghideki [2k\]: haha ] ;B[hk]BL[2434.584]C[ajahuang [6d\]: hater is losing his money ] ;W[hp]WL[2611.367]C[gogonuts [4d\]: hater bet on w? ajahuang [6d\]: yes BOThater36 [4d\]: yes gogonuts [4d\]: blinded by hate ajahuang [6d\]: USD 100 ] ;B[gp]BL[2417.233]C[CBlue [1d?\]: >.> ] ;W[io]WL[2606.004]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: why? we are human .. and fight again robot in the feature ] ;B[jo]BL[2405.135] ;W[ho]WL[2605.245]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: Yang Yo-Chia my 35 years friend told me Chou can beat Zen h-6 ] ;B[hq]BL[2395.45] ;W[bl]WL[2604.187]C[gghideki [2k\]: I guess so ] ;B[bk]BL[2386.227] ;W[cq]WL[2601.817]C[CBlue [1d?\]: uh gogonuts [4d\]: wow cdocdo [3k\]: woa! dingogo [1k\]: for sure beting only on hate is a disgrace ] ;B[cp]BL[2372.801]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: some of ama maybe have better chance again bot better than pro uranium123 [?\]: We will learn some advance hanete from W martin3141 [3d\]: b5 b4 a7 CBlue [1d?\]: doesnt w need b5? uranium123 [?\]: advanced ed3003 [3k\]: who is w uranium123 [?\]: hamete ] ;W[bq]WL[2563.458]C[threeoone [6k\]: resigning early gogonuts [4d\]: w is in much better shape than w in the last 6 stone game, but i still dont see zen losing ] ;B[dr]BL[2348.44]C[oliu321: black is not that thick, so white may be able to get away with it ] ;W[bo]WL[2550.883]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: lots of aji LL ] ;B[bp]BL[2336.899] ;W[ap]WL[2549.824]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: ko? ] ;B[bn]BL[2327.25] ;W[an]WL[2547.976]C[oliu321: kao, ko? martin3141 [3d\]: nice LightningK [3k\]: anti-zen weapon...ko martin3141 [3d\]: lots ot threats at k4-area ] ;B[fg]BL[2311.226]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: human power sowhatnow: its always settled by ko xD ] ;W[eg]WL[2538.4]C[pkunzip [2d\]: ko killer gogonuts [4d\]: d2: stronger than the nidan resistance w usually gets on 6 stones ajahuang [6d\]: F13? ] ;B[gg]BL[2295.223] ;W[ef]WL[2536.306]C[CBlue [1d?\]: oO ajahuang [6d\]: damage a lot cdocdo [3k\]: yeah, ko is last weapon of human race !! sowhatnow: f13 is black getting side pkunzip [2d\]: BOT confuse now BOThater36 [4d\]: I have to sacrefyce my sleep time for this game, Zen owe me too much ] ;B[ao]BL[2276.546]C[gogonuts [4d\]: not confused enough ajahuang [6d\]: F13 is really too bad uranium123 [?\]: lots of aji on the right upper corner... ] ;W[iq]WL[2534.165]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: bot very strong... oliu321: show begins... behta [1k\]: allez zen courage ] ;B[jp]BL[2266.446] ;W[bo]WL[2533.464]C[uranium123 [?\]: left upper... ] ;B[aq]BL[2256.859]C[oliu321: no way black can win the ko ] ;W[bm]WL[2531.635]C[rover999 [1d\]: 为什么不交换一下黑白？ BongoBob [6k\]: o_O ] ;B[ao]BL[2247.016] ;W[bj]WL[2526.573]C[gogonuts [4d\]: zen got a position where only w is in danger - thats enough for b to be winning st21 [1d\]: b strong in ko ] ;B[qh]BL[2227.222] ;W[qi]WL[2524.062]C[CBlue [1d?\]: love those tenukis kgsjutsu [6k?\]: this ko look very bad for w ] ;B[pi]BL[2215.674] ;W[qg]WL[2522.786]C[dingogo [1k\]: if n is the number of ko on the game, the number of pertinent evaluation MC can do should be divided by something like n! or 2 power n. That should make the bot confused behta [1k\]: but computer s'en fout pkunzip [2d\]: BOT confuse in ko ] ;B[oh]BL[2206.475] ;W[rh]WL[2521.216]C[st21 [1d\]: another ko? st21 [1d\]: =) cdocdo [3k\]: tenuki.... uranium123 [?\]: take it sowhatnow: white is not so great -_- gogonuts [4d\]: zen is never confused about the center ] ;B[qk]BL[2188.729] ;W[qe]WL[2518.418]C[martin3141 [3d\]: bot just wants center ... as always xD CBlue [1d?\]: actually i think b is not so great BOThater36 [4d\]: dingo, can you say that in French? ] ;B[pg]BL[2178.759] ;W[pe]WL[2516.379]C[ajahuang [6d\]: he is trying to produce many kos ajahuang [6d\]: that's one of zen's weakness st21 [1d\]: b just giving up too much uranium123 [?\]: threats? oliu321: If black is human, I would say white's situation now is pretty good ] ;B[qf]BL[2159.753] ;W[rf]WL[2514.897]C[st21 [1d\]: that algoritmic problem kgsjutsu [6k?\]: zen brain can process 1 peta flops / s how can be confused. ] ;B[oe]BL[2150.685] ;W[qh]WL[2510.635] ;B[nd]BL[2137.48]C[uranium123 [?\]: w is making ajis for B ] ;W[qd]WL[2509.464]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: Game over, human trump gogonuts [4d\]: but a human taking 6 stones is much weaker in the part of the game thats still ahead ] ;B[pc]BL[2128.379] ;W[qc]WL[2508.117]C[gogonuts [4d\]: i dont feel w caught up enough ] ;B[jg]BL[2105.105] ;W[qp]WL[2501.71]C[uranium123 [?\]: How about the integrity of B's moyo? st21 [1d\]: w strong? gghideki [2k\]: 9p kgsjutsu [6k?\]: game preaty over in move 100 gogonuts [4d\]: 9p enough for you? ] ;B[qo]BL[2089.583] ;W[pq]WL[2498.942]C[st21 [1d\]: really 9p ?? st21 [1d\]: wow! sowhatnow: a bot being 9p BOThater36 [4d\]: this is much much different from previous pro game ] ;B[qq]BL[2074.577]C[oliu321: black is not thick enough ] ;W[rp]WL[2496.852]C[ajahuang [6d\]: lets say that w is able to beat Go player in the world, with a reasonable chance kgsjutsu [6k?\]: yeah.. w learn something from computer ajahuang [6d\]: any Go player st21 [1d\]: oliu so right ] ;B[oq]BL[2059.481] ;W[pr]WL[2495.883] ;B[bi]BL[2050.299] ;W[ap]WL[2493.904]C[pkunzip [2d\]: ko creater st21 [1d\]: w will kill g4 kgsjutsu [6k?\]: super master overplay maybe good. ] ;B[ro]BL[2025.855]C[st21 [1d\]: if win ko uranium123 [?\]: Why B kenuki? gogonuts [4d\]: uses local position as threats, not bad ] ;W[rq]WL[2473.581]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: Zen has two liability, UL and LL group ] ;B[ao]BL[2015.523] ;W[ak]WL[2472.481]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: o8 moyos.. decedie the game martin3141 [3d\]: b11 is a good move for a bot ] ;B[cj]BL[2003.84] ;W[ap]WL[2470.651] ;B[fb]BL[1994.543] ;W[gb]WL[2467.947]C[pkunzip [2d\]: W know how to use ko to sonfuse Zen gghideki [2k\]: ouch ] ;B[ao]BL[1980.91] ;W[ck]WL[2466.907]C[threeoone [6k\]: w alive kgsjutsu [6k?\]: not yet ] ;B[ch]BL[1969.356] ;W[ap]WL[2465.996] ;B[ke]BL[1957.782] ;W[ar]WL[2463.761]C[CBlue [1d?\]: oO gogonuts [4d\]: zen playing a relaxed game ] ;B[or]BL[1944.281]C[sowhatnow: woo ] ;W[qr]WL[2461.82]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: LL b group ok? kik [4k\]: BOT bug is double KO and it can reduce the adj of the BOT ] ;B[ir]BL[1935.503] ;W[ql]WL[2451.982]C[uranium123 [?\]: if B does something to strenthen his moyo, that is enough... gogonuts [4d\]: war Peyote [1d\]: o BongoBob [6k\]: o_o BOThater36 [4d\]: game decision time ajahuang [6d\]: b is ahead over 50 points Koffein [-\]: wow kgsjutsu [6k?\]: last chance ] ;B[pl]BL[1922.082]C[oliu321: win mode? ] ;W[pm]WL[2442.371]C[oliu321: chou's show time gogonuts [4d\]: y ] ;B[rl]BL[1910.325]C[uranium123 [?\]: not a descent game for E... Slayan [5k\]: robot fight? kgsjutsu [6k?\]: super hamete again super bot st21 [1d\]: ... zmiei [19k?\]: wooow gogonuts [4d\]: hm ARPAnet [?\]: gghideki, what is the playout rate right now? zmiei [19k?\]: hi ppl pkunzip [2d\]: no ko here gogonuts [4d\]: s8 extinguishes the fire ... BOThater36 [4d\]: 88% ] ;W[og]WL[2405.721]C[gghideki [2k\]: 7600 po/s on master pc Slayan [5k\]: Zen TCGA is a bot too? ] ;B[of]BL[1899.782] ;W[ng]WL[2404.854]C[ARPAnet [?\]: thanks uranium123 [?\]: he works for the website? ] ;B[nh]BL[1889.126] ;W[mg]WL[2403.061]C[gogonuts [4d\]: is there a way to ask zen for the winrate on kgs? BongoBob [6k\]: TCGA is a pro, Slayan kgsjutsu [6k?\]: 88% ^** ] ;B[mh]BL[1879.354]C[Slayan [5k\]: ok ] ;W[lg]WL[2399.528]C[gghideki [2k\]: no but me gogonuts [4d\]: lol martin3141 [3d\]: seems desperate to me Slayan [5k\]: wow with 6 handi st21 [1d\]: l11 st21 [1d\]: ? ] ;B[kd]BL[1852.477] ;W[lh]WL[2398.205]C[gogonuts [4d\]: s8 was unhappy for w st21 [1d\]: g18 not alive too =) uranium123 [?\]: I think four handi maybe resonable... ] ;B[mc]BL[1830.115] ;W[nj]WL[2395.448]C[st21 [1d\]: w will lose there ] ;B[mi]BL[1815.611] ;W[qm]WL[2393.516]C[st21 [1d\]: but... bot can start stupid moves uranium123 [?\]: B tries to remove the bad aji... gogonuts [4d\]: w almost defeated, but not quite yet ] ;B[rm]BL[1793.57] ;W[ol]WL[2392.694]C[martin3141 [3d\]: I don't see white winning unless something magically happens in the center ] ;B[mj]BL[1784.662] ;W[pk]WL[2388.545]C[oliu321: Is white cleaning up his modd? Or there is an evil plan? ] ;B[qj]BL[1775.992]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: live inside ^^ uranium123 [?\]: that seems quite impossible... blurb: w not prepared for bots myo style maybe didnt even bother to play a traing game alumina [6d\]: b s7 seems correct move. ] ;W[mk]WL[2379.749]C[gogonuts [4d\]: thats a funny "unless" ] ;B[lk]BL[1765.624] ;W[po]WL[2373.556]C[Peyote [1d\]: w will win gogonuts [4d\]: no kgsjutsu [6k?\]: just pray for w Nobato [4k\]: b won gogonuts [4d\]: zen is letting w live ] ;B[pn]BL[1736.625]C[CBlue [1d?\]: nice thinking break here? oO ] ;W[op]WL[2371.755]C[CBlue [1d?\]: .. gogonuts [4d\]: its within the budget now st21 [1d\]: )) ] ;B[on]BL[1727.328] ;W[qn]WL[2371.035]C[ajahuang [6d\]: N17 was a bit slow oliu321: w is pretty much alive martin3141 [3d\]: next ko coming up ] ;B[rn]BL[1717.488] ;W[om]WL[2370.084]C[ajahuang [6d\]: should play at center martin3141 [3d\]: or not x) ] ;B[nn]BL[1708.641]C[zmiei [19k?\]: b didn't play engough honte he pays the price CBlue [1d?\]: n8? :-s ARPAnet [?\]: q6 was good kik [4k\]: o9 ? Nobato [4k\]: lol Peyote [1d\]: b will win ] ;W[mn]WL[2328.771]C[gogonuts [4d\]: w needs life and sente ] ;B[ml]BL[1695.575]C[st21 [1d\]: and points and aji Peyote [1d\]: thats the tragedy ] ;W[nk]WL[2322.411]C[Koffein [-\]: w needs life, sente, and luck^^ ] ;B[mm]BL[1683.21] ;W[lj]WL[2315.254]C[st21 [1d\]: lucky!! ] ;B[li]BL[1674.224] ;W[no]WL[2313.367]C[oliu321: beautiful uranium123 [?\]: Hamete... Peyote [1d\]: lucky sente life? maidguy: haha ] ;B[ln]BL[1655.597]C[gogonuts [4d\]: not beautiful enough ] ;W[mo]WL[2311.129]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: skill.. st21 [1d\]: o7 ] ;B[nm]BL[1638.716]C[uranium123 [?\]: m10? ] ;W[ll]WL[2307.93]C[verysober [?\]: w gave b a 6h ? CBlue [1d?\]: b is gonna M7 ^^ ] ;B[kj]BL[1630.088] ;W[oj]WL[2306.932]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: 9p CBlue [1d?\]: aw maidguy: alive dantes1 [12k?\]: i think the comp needed to play more aggressively in the opening to have a chance. ie. try invasions. it played like it had a losing position against another comp and just tried to defend as best it could BOThater36 [4d\]: sente live Garfield10 [1k\]: nice ] ;B[jc]BL[1616.727]C[ajahuang [6d\]: impressive zmiei [19k?\]: Xd ajahuang [6d\]: but still losing ] ;W[cg]WL[2291.884]C[verysober [?\]: w hasn t won against b yet gogonuts [4d\]: w got everything except sente cdocdo [3k\]: but impressive..! verysober [?\]: and they played loads!!! zmiei [19k?\]: b should play honte moves ] ;B[cf]BL[1605.368]C[meumi [14k\]: could we know winrate now? gghideki ] ;W[bh]WL[2282.811]C[zmiei [19k?\]: c14 is good uranium123 [?\]: W only uses 7 min! ] ;B[ci]BL[1596.435] ;W[dg]WL[2281.801]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: ithink more than 80% winrate ] ;B[bg]BL[1587.865]C[st21 [1d\]: and what? ] ;W[eb]WL[2280.53] ;B[db]BL[1577.015] ;W[fa]WL[2279.652] ;B[hc]BL[1567.864]C[pkunzip [2d\]: fire... cdocdo [3k\]: W is amazingly fast....!! ] ;W[bf]WL[2274.708]C[gogonuts [4d\]: ouch st21 [1d\]: c17 soon ] ;B[ah]BL[1559.314] ;W[cd]WL[2273.115]C[gogonuts [4d\]: w can see his own fate kgsjutsu [6k?\]: w cluster super computer. ] ;B[be]BL[1550.622]C[ajahuang [6d\]: oops ] ;W[cc]WL[2270.998] ;B[dc]BL[1540.521] ;W[cb]WL[2269.57]C[verysober [?\]: nice ajahuang [6d\]: capture half kgsjutsu [6k?\]: hoho that work ^^ ajahuang [6d\]: E15 BOThater36 [4d\]: P11, B die? cdocdo [3k\]: amazing st21 [1d\]: e15 ] ;B[de]BL[1523.191] ;W[da]WL[2268.258]C[verysober [?\]: w about 6d possibly zmiei [19k?\]: d15 alumina [6d\]: b a18 ] ;B[lm]BL[1509.829]C[st21 [1d\]: g15 gogonuts [4d\]: w is 9p, fyi ajahuang [6d\]: oh I miscount ] ;W[nl]WL[2266.029]C[go1986 [11k\]: 9p ] ;B[oi]BL[1501.154]C[Suphyph [7k?\]: is this Chou 9p? gogonuts [4d\]: y verysober [?\]: why ppl say he 9p verysober [?\]: w lost to bot on 9by9 ] ;W[mq]WL[2248.903]C[gogonuts [4d\]: get sober st21 [1d\]: w still not lost ] ;B[lq]BL[1492.605]C[Peyote [1d\]: ] ;W[lp]WL[2245.812]C[st21 [1d\]: but ] ;B[mr]BL[1484.092]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: Zen is 9P+0.5 ] ;W[np]WL[2244.94]C[st21 [1d\]: pros strong in yose kgsjutsu [6k?\]: in 9x9 zmiei [19k?\]: w is cheese with many holes ] ;B[lr]BL[1475.499] ;W[pb]WL[2243.796]C[zmiei [19k?\]: i mean b ] ;B[bd]BL[1466.966] ;W[hb]WL[2241.648]C[uranium123 [?\]: ha ] ;B[ib]BL[1452.122] ;W[gc]WL[2240.612]C[hvfun: who is whit? ] ;B[nb]BL[1443.775]C[hvfun: white? ] ;W[oc]WL[2234.166]C[meumi [14k\]: 9x9 go is almost solved game for bot gogonuts [4d\]: 9p Mikuro [2d\]: Chun-Hsun Chou (9P) ] ;B[od]BL[1435.123] ;W[ob]WL[2233.411]C[cdocdo [3k\]: Chou 9p ] ;B[mb]BL[1426.536] ;W[hd]WL[2232.141]C[hvfun: i see hvfun: thanks ] ;B[id]BL[1416.045]C[st21 [1d\]: w already know who winner is ] ;W[cr]WL[2225.032]C[oliu321: now it's black who tastes bad gogonuts [4d\]: w is playing a great game, but its not enough ] ;B[dq]BL[1407.626] ;W[hg]WL[2222.506]C[verysober [?\]: moves like c2 i will never comprehend verysober [?\]: seems so small verysober [?\]: to me ] ;B[hh]BL[1399.228]C[oliu321: see whether there is chance to chuqi ] ;W[gf]WL[2220.472]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: 6h to much .. maybe 5 zmiei [19k?\]: w is playing tesuji tesuji tesuj ] ;B[gh]BL[1390.407] ;W[ic]WL[2217.012] ;B[je]BL[1381.891] ;W[nr]WL[2214.815]C[fyzqxm [5d\]: 黑棋还是好啊 ] ;B[lo]BL[1373.478]C[ail [-\]: c2 huge, sente yose after too ] ;W[jb]WL[2209.386] ;B[oa]BL[1364.876] ;W[qb]WL[2207.556] ;B[kb]BL[1356.12] ;W[ia]WL[2205.279] ;B[if]BL[1347.558] ;W[hf]WL[2203.873]C[ajahuang [6d\]: Zen keeps losing points st21 [1d\]: b17 ] ;B[bc]BL[1339.168]C[verysober [?\]: needs to reduce centre kgsjutsu [6k?\]: wow.. pkunzip [2d\]: ko creater......... ] ;W[rj]WL[2196.758]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: I lose my 100 dollars gogonuts [4d\]: but the way hes losing them doesnt feel good for w ... ] ;B[rk]BL[1330.693]C[uranium123 [?\]: oh ] ;W[sj]WL[2194.944]C[ajahuang [6d\]: but hater is still losing his money ] ;B[kp]BL[1322.023]C[martin3141 [3d\]: it's funny nobody comments on manyfaces' game Slayan [5k\]: what did you bet? pkunzip [2d\]: hater36,you lose zmiei [19k?\]: b is intimidated gghideki [2k\]: 93% ] ;W[ms]WL[2185.933]C[go1986 [11k\]: wow kgsjutsu [6k?\]: wow gogonuts [4d\]: no, b is counting his cash ] ;B[ig]BL[1313.349]C[ARPAnet [?\]: over ] ;W[ls]WL[2182.142]C[pkunzip [2d\]: i think B win ajahuang [6d\]: this is no way to reserve uranium123 [?\]: B is convinced to win... ] ;B[kr]BL[1304.885] ;W[ds]WL[2179.765]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: 93 //// go1986 [11k\]: i cant belive this ] ;B[es]BL[1296.483]C[ARPAnet [?\]: you mean reverse, aja? ] ;W[cs]WL[2174.855]C[zmiei [19k?\]: w will win with 0,5 ] ;B[gr]BL[1288.007]C[krs [5k\]: l2 is so wise ] ;W[bb]WL[2168.435] ;B[ab]BL[1279.12] ;W[ac]WL[2166.866]C[gogonuts [4d\]: ws problem is that b ran out of problems ] ;B[ad]BL[1270.654] ;W[fk]WL[2165.011]C[oliu321: indeed uranium123 [?\]: good commments... ] ;B[gk]BL[1262.172] ;W[fj]WL[2163.332] ;B[ei]BL[1253.184]C[gghideki [2k\]: haha ] ;W[bk]WL[2156.895] ;B[ks]BL[1244.738] ;W[ns]WL[2154.453]C[BOThater36 [4d\]: how can a machine never play a kyu move at all during a game against 9 dan pro? gghideki [2k\]: 96% ajahuang [6d\]: but strange that w is playing so fast kgsjutsu [6k?\]: i thinks top ama gain bot will much interesting.. ^^ ] ;B[eh]BL[1236.088]C[ajahuang [6d\]: why Chao 9p plays so fast? ] ;W[gj]WL[2152.43] ;B[hj]BL[1227.385]C[verysober [?\]: i zee now why w didn't just play f9 ] ;W[pa]WL[2151.5]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: chou multicore ajahuang [6d\]: he used only 10 mins cdocdo [3k\]: 96%?? OMG Mikuro [2d\]: Actually I'm quite impressed that a pro can make it this close against a KGS 4d with SIX STONES ] ;B[ka]BL[1218.688]C[krs [5k\]: n4 sente now ] ;W[na]WL[2148.901]C[gghideki [2k\]: one more game? gogonuts [4d\]: because he sees his fate, and doesnt want to prolong it ajahuang [6d\]: oh ] ;B[ja]BL[1210.089] ;W[ib]WL[2146.89]C[kevinwm [2k\]: yes - n4 soon ] ;B[sp]BL[1201.425] ;W[mp]WL[2144.336]C[Koffein [-\]: aja: why should white think at all at handicap games? whatever you play, if your opponent plays the right sequence, you lose go1986 [11k\]: yeah a 9p should beat a kgs 4 dan with 6 stones ] ;B[oo]BL[1192.758] ;W[pp]WL[2142.898] ;B[ce]BL[1183.897] ;W[ca]WL[2140.158]C[gogonuts [4d\]: 4d is favorite on 6 ARPAnet [?\]: Zen is a strong kgs 4d ] ;B[kl]BL[1175.14]C[zmiei [19k?\]: b19 !! kgsjutsu [6k?\]: i think in 5 games w will win 3-2 again zen19s ] ;W[he]WL[2136.969]C[Backflash [10k\]: is it? uranium123 [?\]: W's tesuji is impressive... ] ;B[ie]BL[1166.503] ;W[sq]WL[2136.006] ;B[so]BL[1157.691]C[gghideki [2k\]: really ] ;W[sk]WL[2135.147]C[gogonuts [4d\]: L8 . hater, you have to pay BOThater36 [4d\]: 4 dan KGS should favor, but not as convencing as Zen did ajahuang [6d\]: Koffein, why you call me aja? I am ajahuang ] ;B[sl]BL[1148.772] ;W[ee]WL[2130.521] ;B[ma]BL[1140.088] ;W[oa]WL[2127.955]C[verysober [?\]: once you understand the bot...it's easy to win ] ;B[md]BL[1131.163] ;W[fm]WL[2125.296]C[Koffein [-\]: i´m lazy, that´s why BOThater36 [4d\]: in even game level ] ;B[do]BL[1122.357]C[kgsjutsu [6k?\]: not again Zen ] ;W[fo]WL[2123.101]C[martin3141 [3d\]: even in handicap game you can try to make the best out of it ] ;B[er]BL[1113.388]C[no9736 [6k\]: ZenTCGA 9d? gghideki [2k\]: 9p kevinwm [2k\]: e2?? ] ;W[ea]WL[2112.398]C[gogonuts [4d\]: the handicap opening improvement is paying off for zen Suphyph [7k?\]: maybe he will play inside to win on time :p Goreon [2d\]: pro always has sente it seems ] ;B[aa]BL[1104.447] ;W[ba]WL[2109.129] ;B[ac]BL[1095.233] ;W[ai]WL[2108.062]C[verysober [?\]: ncie yosue ajahuang [6d\]: how many points? kevinwm [2k\]: a11??? ] ;B[af]BL[1086.156]C[gogonuts [4d\]: so the rating thievery on kgs with wrong handicaps had an upside too BOThater36 [4d\]: b + 25 ] ;W[aj]WL[2106.363]C[kevinwm [2k\]: -1/2 pt ] ;B[ed]BL[1076.871] ;W[di]WL[2104.785]C[gogonuts [4d\]: programmers had to pay more attention to handicap games ] ;B[ej]BL[1067.706] ;W[go]WL[2103.965]C[uranium123 [?\]: how do you think abut the 5 handi games? ] ;B[ek]BL[1058.441]C[ajahuang [6d\]: around 10 points ] ;W[ni]WL[2101.904]C[uranium123 [?\]: about ajahuang [6d\]: if I count correctly gghideki [2k\]: I'm paying but not so easy to improve, gogonuts ] ;B[]BL[1056.896]C[Slayan [5k\]: I don't like to know pros are loosing against bots even if it's with 6 stones handi ] ;W[]WL[2101.185]TW[ga][ha][qa][ra][sa][fb][rb][sb][hc][rc][sc][gd][rd][sd][fe][ge][re][se][sf][rg][sg][sh][ri][si][ok][al][pl][am][gm][bn][ao][aq][nq][oq][qq][br][or][rr][sr][as][bs][os][ps][qs][rs][ss]TB[la][lb][kc][lc][jd][ld][ae][le][me][ne][bf][jf][kf][lf][mf][nf][ag][kg][lg][mg][ng][og][bh][fh][ih][jh][kh][lh][hi][ii][ji][ki][ij][jj][lj][ik][jk][kk][il][jl][ll][jm][km][sm][jn][kn][sn][ko][ep][eq][fq][gq][iq][jq][kq][fr][hr][jr][fs][gs][hs][is][js]C[KGSPlayer [-\]: ((((((((((((((((( uranium123 [?\]: gg meumi [14k\]: wow Peyote [1d\]: o ajahuang [6d\]: congratulations to Zen!!!! verysober [?\]: If w doesn't die ZenAuthor [-\]: thanks for the game verysober [?\]: he could win BOThater36 [4d\]: my bad day ARPAnet [?\]: won by a huge margin fyzqxm [5d\]: good verysober [?\]: shame about m13 gghideki [2k\]: Thank you very much for playing, Chou 9p cdocdo [3k\]: ( ; _ ; ) noo.... gogonuts [4d\]: good game by w, convincing win by b go1986 [11k\]: wow kgsjutsu [6k?\]: thanks for the game ])[/sgf-full]

Author:	1986 [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
wow I'm speechless zen was undefeated congrats to the zen team , its amazing IMO: a 9p should be 6 stones stronger than a 4d but what do i know but i guess that's about the right handicap considering the outcome its not that big of a gap between amateurs and pros, a 4d taking 6 stones against a 9p just doesn't sound right to me maybe a 1p then it would make since... but hey life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
As far as I know a good 5D EGF can compete with a professional player on three stones. So what is KGS 4D (although Zen19S is almost 5D with a win ratio of 67%)? Maybe 3D/4D EGF? So I think six stones would be a bit too much. But then again, bots are far more stable in their strength and won't compromise in a difficult situation, which often occurs in handicap games.

Author:	1986 [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
I'm talking specifically about 9p But ugot a point I guess pro ranks ain't what they use to be. I assume a 9p can give at least 4 stones to 4p and win. Let alone a 4 Dan KGS Now a days pro is pro. But 9dan is the highest grade a pro can achieve any amateurs rank shouldn't be a issue with proper handicap 9 Dan should win You have to be a good 5 Dan to play a 9p with 3 stones

Author:	hyperpape [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
SoDesuNe wrote: As far as I know a good 5D EGF can compete with a professional player on three stones. One data point: http://www.361points.com/blog/tag/ama-vs-pro/

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4140	Page 1 of 1

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
1986 wrote: I'm talking specifically about 9p But ugot a point I guess pro ranks ain't what they use to be. I assume a 9p can give at least 4 stones to 4p and win. Let alone a 4 Dan KGS Now a days pro is pro. But 9dan is the highest grade a pro can achieve any amateurs rank shouldn't be a issue with proper handicap 9 Dan should win You have to be a good 5 Dan to play a 9p with 3 stones I don't think a 9p can give 4H to any other pro. There is - in my opinion - maybe one stone difference between being awarded a 1p and a 9p. And no I don't talk about the players, who go in the west to teach and thus become weaker or the ones who don't focus all their live on being a professional Go player. What I mean is, I don't think Iyama Yuta is now eight stones stronger compared to his beginning Go career. hyperpape Yes, that kind of underlines my thesis ^^ Quite a few games ended because Black lost a big group, all the other games were pretty close. Now one can argue about the relative strength of Zen19S and human players. I don't know how Zen19S calculates Life-and-Death and if he frequently loses (handicap) games by getting killed, too. But as far as I know, a lack of reading skill is the first thing pros notice when playing against western players (and over-agressivess ^^). By the way, can someone transcribe the time-limits of the games behind hyperpape's link? I think they are quite fast, aren't they?

Author:	Mike Novack [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
What we need to keep in mind is that not all that long ago (just a few years) many folks were saying they didn't think any of these programs could get to the point of being able to beat a pro even with nine stones. PS -- What did you think of the style of play? If you didn't already know, enough to conclude "that can't be a humn, must be a bot." Or was it close enough to how a human might have played to pass that test?

Author:	hyperpape [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
SoDesuNe wrote: hyperpape Yes, that kind of underlines my thesis I don't think this is does. These are European 6 dans, and they struggle on 3 stones. You'd expect the 5 dans to need 4 stones.

Author:	yoyoma [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)
Mike Novack wrote: What we need to keep in mind is that not all that long ago (just a few years) many folks were saying they didn't think any of these programs could get to the point of being able to beat a pro even with nine stones. PS -- What did you think of the style of play? If you didn't already know, enough to conclude "that can't be a humn, must be a bot." Or was it close enough to how a human might have played to pass that test? I think the nature of handicap games make the usual bot style of play look a lot more natural. The bots love moyos and attacking and that fits the handicap games nicely. But also I think this game Zen played quite nicely, there were not so many terrible looking "bot moves", such as pointless sentes.

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