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Free (Libre) servers or communities?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9456		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  cmhobbs [ Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Free (Libre) servers or communities?
Are there any servers or communities like KGS/IGS running Free/Libre software? I know KGS is all proprietary and it appears as if the IGS server is proprietary, though you can connect with Free clients.

Off to comb Sensei's Library! :study:
Author:  oren [ Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
nngs used to be, but it stopped a while ago.

Dragon Go Server is a turn based server that is open source though I don't know what license.
Author:  Mike Novack [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
Maybe you want to explain what you mean?

The term "free software" refers to software with any of a number of very unrestrictive licenses (the source code must be available at minimal* cost). Nobody is under any obligation to provide free as in free beer downloads even of the source code let alone executables compiled ready for your machine although obviously somebody could be willing to do that if they wished to.

But what do you mean by a "free software server"?

A server can be made available for people to use even free as in free beer even if none of the software running on that machine is "free software". Conversely, every bit of software on that machine could be free software but that would not restrict the owners of the server from charging you for connect time to their server.

You need to keep clear in your mind what the various free software licenses do and what they don't do. Just because free software is involved doesn't mean that any and all services provided using that software are free. For example, just because some bookkeeper or accountant is using an open source accounting package doesn't mean that they have to keep your books for free. So I'll repeat. A go server using all free software would not have to provide you with free use. A go server running all proprietary software would not have to charge you anything to use that software.

* The rules were developed before the internet was as widespread as now. Thus the language usually says something like "on standard medium for no more than the usual and customary charge for that". Easy to determine what that might be as there are plenty of services out there that will for a small charge download anything you want, burn it to disk for you, and mail you that disk (or thumb drive or whatever would be judged "standard medium" today).
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
:roll: Mike, when someone says they want something "libre", they almost certainly mean that they want a server where the software running is free software, in the sense of a permissive copyleft license.Not sure why you wanted to provide a FAQ about what open source means.

Anyway, I also know of nothing that fits the bill.
Author:  cmhobbs [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
Mike Novack wrote:
Maybe you want to explain what you mean?
You need to keep clear in your mind what the various free software licenses do and what they don't do. Just because free software is involved doesn't mean that any and all services provided using that software are free.


I don't mean "Free as in Beer", I mean "Free as in Speech", as in the GNU sense. I assumed that if a projects like many of the GNU compatible clients and software like GnuGo existed, there may be servers out there that fall under the same philosophies.

I suppose stating "like IGS or KGS" was a bit vague. What I meant was this: does Libre software exist that will allow Go players to hang out in a queue and play via their respective clients?

I'm asking out of general curiosity more than anything. I don't believe that the community needs yet another server. I'm a developer by trade and it'd be interesting to see the code to such a setup. There's a lot of options out there for making games talk to each other.
Author:  oren [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
cmhobbs wrote:
I'm asking out of general curiosity more than anything. I don't believe that the community needs yet another server. I'm a developer by trade and it'd be interesting to see the code to such a setup. There's a lot of options out there for making games talk to each other.


nngs was the most complete and you can play games using it if you want.

http://senseis.xmp.net/?NNGS

Falls under GPL2.
Author:  Mike Novack [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
What I meant (why the "FAQ") is that I don't understand what was meant in the sense of what the relevance might be.

Why (for what reason) would one care whether the hammers and saws that built a house were "free" hammers and saws or "proprietary" hammers and saws. Both could be used for the purpose and in neither case would it be determined whether the resulting house were "free" or "proprietary".

If "free" software existed for operating a go server that would not make the server "free". I was thinking that the original question might make sense if the person asking it were under the impression that the "free software" concept meant that whatever was done using it would be free (hence the "FAQ" indicting the limits of the concept). No, if you write a book using the word processor in LibreOffice that does not make the book public domain. If you provide a service allowing people to play go with each other, that you are running this server using free software does not make that service free. And the converses are true.

cmhobbs, could you say what you meant?
Author:  leichtloeslich [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
Mike Novack wrote:
Why (for what reason) would one care whether the hammers and saws that built a house were "free" hammers and saws or "proprietary" hammers and saws.

You can open a new thread in off-topic to discuss that: "Why do people care about free software?".
In this thread the question just seems irrelevant.

@topic: I also only know of NNGS, which is an IGS clone, btw.
DGS is aGPL, but it's a correspondence server. See here (FAQ) and here (license).

I believe the Kaya developers said they will open the source should the project ever die. The project died, and they haven't. (To my knowledge.)

OGS (formerly known as Nova) developers also said they may open the source eventually, but I'm not sure how much stock I would put into that ever happening.
Author:  cmhobbs [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
Mike Novack wrote:
cmhobbs, could you say what you meant?



I wanted to know if non-proprietary Go server software existed so I could tinker with it freely. I prefer GNU compatible software because I know exactly what I'm dealing with when I start delving into code. That's it... I wasn't asking about Free (Gratis) services where I could play Go with other people.

I definitely think we're starting to move off topic. Thanks for the input, everyone! :tmbup:
Author:  Mike Novack [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
Ah, now makes sense.

OK, just because code isn't free software doesn't necessarily mean you can't get to tinker with it. It means you have to ask for permission, which might or might not be given.

When "proprietary" software is considered to have some commercial value that permission would not likely be granted. But when there is little or no commercial potential (and I can't see running go servers as making big money) it might be. There might be conditions attached to the permission, but possibly ones you could live with.

I would have better understood what you meant in the first place had you said that you had asked for permission and been denied. We usually understand the term "proprietary" in its stronger sense, intended for sale, not in the weaker sense, "in house" software not explicitly made "free". For example, if I write a piece of software for my own amusement (keep my hand in) I'm unlikely to bother making it open source but equally unlikely to deny permission to play with it (except perhaps imposing the condition "remains mine" -- cannot be adversely claimed).
Author:  oren [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Free (Libre) servers or communities?
Mike Novack wrote:
I would have better understood what you meant in the first place had you said that you had asked for permission and been denied. We usually understand the term "proprietary" in its stronger sense, intended for sale, not in the weaker sense, "in house" software not explicitly made "free". For example, if I write a piece of software for my own amusement (keep my hand in) I'm unlikely to bother making it open source but equally unlikely to deny permission to play with it (except perhaps imposing the condition "remains mine" -- cannot be adversely claimed).


Mike, it was fairly obvious to most of us who were reading it and answered his question. It seems to only be you confused by the terms. :)
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