It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:48 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 201 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 11  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #21 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:58 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 588
Location: NY
Liked others: 124
Was liked: 46
Rank: 2D KGS
illluck wrote:
Also interesting is that it is very likely that there's no real plan to reopen the NY centre - apparently that centre was... less than successful.


This was partially due to the Kiin itself. They stubbornly refused to allow the building to be partially renovated in order to allow us to rent out the top floors; something that would have made the center more than self-sufficient.

My guess is that legally there's not much that the SGC can do, but I think the recent actions of the Kiin have been wrong and have directly gone against Iwamoto's wishes. The SGC was able to break even, so it was not a drain to the Kiin in any way. They claim that they want to route the funds to the NYGC, but these funds were never needed, the aforementioned renovation was not a very inexpensive investment and would have generated a profit. The Kiin has shown again and again that international spreading of go is not their priority, even if that means going against the wishes of someone who donated money specifically for that purpose.

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee


This post by Jedo was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #22 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:25 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 389
Liked others: 81
Was liked: 128
KGS: lepore
As someone who played for years at both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center, I am sad to see them both suffer recently. I don't know legally who is on more solid ground, and I don't know the financial realities facing the Nihon-Kiin. Most of us at this point are just speculating from afar.

I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #23 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:34 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 800
Liked others: 141
Was liked: 123
Rank: AGA 2kyu
Universal go server handle: speedchase
mhlepore wrote:
I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.


This post by speedchase was liked by: PeterHB
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #24 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
mhlepore wrote:
As someone who played for years at both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center


What are the average numbers of players per go playing day? How many days per week?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #25 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:54 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1103
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 408
Was liked: 422
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
speedchase wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.


The SGC is a unique location in this country, it's taken years to build. Even if the economy improved and the center could later be reopened, it could take years for it to return to its same status.

I don't think it's selfish to fight for something like this.

And to be fair, US-Japan relations are less vital right now than US-Korea relations. Japan is no longer the only game in town.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...


This post by shapenaji was liked by 2 people: imabuddha, wms
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #26 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:57 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 389
Liked others: 81
Was liked: 128
KGS: lepore
RobertJasiek wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
As someone who played for years at both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center


What are the average numbers of players per go playing day? How many days per week?


I played in NY more than a decade ago. Seattle was 2002-2004. So keeping in mind that my experiences are dated, Seattle seemed to have more regulars attending and more formal events, but I can't put a number on it. Both I believe were closed one day a week. NYGC had an entire townhouse in prime space of mid-town Manhattan and there seemed to be a larger contingent of Japanese players there than in Seattle. I enjoyed both.


This post by mhlepore was liked by: wms
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #27 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:45 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 130
Location: UK, Nr. London
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 67
Rank: 3k EGF 3k KGS
speedchase wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.

And the rest. The US isn't the whole world. The NHK had reached out trying to promote Go all over the world. I don't sue my family and I don't sue my friends, unless I don't want them as friends anymore. The only people who gain from legal action are lawyers with your money. I doubt that Japanese people sue their friends either. It will make them think who their friends are, who they want to be involved with. That is no 'win' for anyone.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #28 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:05 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2644
Liked others: 304
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
PeterHB wrote:
speedchase wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.

And the rest. The US isn't the whole world. The NHK had reached out trying to promote Go all over the world. I don't sue my family and I don't sue my friends, unless I don't want them as friends anymore. The only people who gain from legal action are lawyers with your money. I doubt that Japanese people sue their friends either. It will make them think who their friends are, who they want to be involved with. That is no 'win' for anyone.

By the same token, friends don't evict friends from their homes. So while I understand your general attitude - that if you flatter the Nihon Kiin that their actions are always noble and just, perhaps they will remember your obeisance if they ever again feel the need to promote Go elsewhere in the world - I can also understand why the Seattle community does not see the Kiin's actions as the actions of a friend.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #29 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:36 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 130
Location: UK, Nr. London
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 67
Rank: 3k EGF 3k KGS
jts wrote:
- that if you flatter the Nihon Kiin that their actions are always noble and just, perhaps they will remember your obeisance if they ever again feel the need to promote Go elsewhere in the world -

Just for clarity, the above statement by jts does not represent my view. Nearly the opposite represents my view. Shows the danger of believing you are summarizing someone's view. Considering I have been quite the opposite of silent on my views, it might be easier to let people read them and form their own opinion of my views.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #30 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:43 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
Was liked: 239
Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
I think jts is expanding on your metaphor with family and friends. The fact that you don't agree suggests that the metaphor is not an apt one.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #31 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:48 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 130
Location: UK, Nr. London
Liked others: 163
Was liked: 67
Rank: 3k EGF 3k KGS
illluck wrote:
I think jts is expanding on your metaphor with family and friends. The fact that you don't agree suggests that the metaphor is not an apt one.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. You will note that I didn't disagree with the part where he extended the metaphor actually. That part seemed quite well put and sensible. That's why I only quoted the part I disagreed with, the part that tried to put words into my mouth, wholly inaccurately.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #32 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:05 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
Was liked: 239
Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Ah, sorry then. I've had a terrible time with reading on and off the board today :oops:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #33 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:00 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 116
Liked others: 12
Was liked: 31
Rank: KGS 1k
GD Posts: 417
KGS: badukboris
jts wrote:

IANAL, btw.



Oh do you?


This post by wessanenoctupus was liked by: Kanin
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #34 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:10 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2644
Liked others: 304
Was liked: 631
Rank: kgs 6k
PeterHB wrote:
jts wrote:
- that if you flatter the Nihon Kiin that their actions are always noble and just, perhaps they will remember your obeisance if they ever again feel the need to promote Go elsewhere in the world -

Just for clarity, the above statement by jts does not represent my view. Nearly the opposite represents my view. Shows the danger of believing you are summarizing someone's view. Considering I have been quite the opposite of silent on my views, it might be easier to let people read them and form their own opinion of my views.

I apologize if I misread your views. You said that the Kiin was trying to spread go not just in Seattle, not just in the US, but in the whole world, and that resisting their decision about Seattle would make them (I assume you mean, the Nihon Kiin) think about who their "real friends" are. I assumed that that implies the converse, as well - don't resist their decisions, no questions raised about friendship.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #35 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:11 pm 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 44
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 5
Code:
There are not enough facts in this thread so my view could be completely wrong, but i will chime in based on what i see.


The sign says funded by, not donated by. :scratch:

From what i have read so far i think the SGC should be ashamed of themselves. The Nihon ki-in provided what they could for as long as they felt that they could. Instead of being met with gratitude for what they had given in the past, it appears that they are now being hit with an irrational argument of self entitlement?

Kaoru Iwamoto i would think, would be proud that he was able to contribute to the growth of the game abroad while it was able to happen. However when the money runs dry, i do not think this means that his vision has failed. Nor do i think the SGC has any reason to complain. If someone lent me money, i wouldnt be suprised or angry when they want it returned and i certainly wouldnt feel entitled to it and try to sue them for leaving me with what i had to begin with. :roll:

The project has come to an end and perhaps the strategy could have been better for everyone if played differently. But this is the way it has to turned out, and like in our own games we have to accept the outcome.


This post by balistic was liked by 3 people: Charlie, EdLee, PeterHB
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #36 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:26 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
balistic wrote:
From what i have read so far i think the SGC should be ashamed of themselves.
The Nihon ki-in provided what they could for as long as they felt that they could.
Instead of being met with gratitude for what they had given in the past
My feelings exactly.

EVEN IF the SGC has legal grounds to sue, this is ridiculous.

Iwamoto Sensei and the Nihon Kiin supported Go in NY and Seattle (and other parts of the world)
for so many years. Now, everybody knows Go in Japan is on the decline and the Nihon Kiin is not
what it used to be. Instead of supporting and be thankful to the Nihon Kiin, the SGC is suing.
This is ridiculous.

The Chinese understand this. The Chinese Go Association is doing whatever they can
to support and help the Nihon Kiin, because they understand how people like Fujisawa Shuko Sensei
helped re-build Go in China in the 1980's.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #37 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:31 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1103
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 408
Was liked: 422
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
EdLee wrote:
balistic wrote:
From what i have read so far i think the SGC should be ashamed of themselves.
The Nihon ki-in provided what they could for as long as they felt that they could.
Instead of being met with gratitude for what they had given in the past
My feelings exactly.

EVEN IF the SGC has legal grounds to sue, this is ridiculous.

Iwamoto Sensei, and the Nihon Kiin supported Go in NY and Seattle (and other parts of the world)
for so many years. Now, everybody knows Go in Japan is on the decline and the Nihon Kiin is not
what it used to be. Instead of supporting and be thankful to the Nihon Kiin, the SGC is suing.
This is ridiculous.

The Chinese understand this. The Chinese Go Association is doing whatever they can
to support and help the Nihon Kiin, because they understand how people like Fujisawa Shuko Sensei
helped re-build Go in China in the 1980's.


Ed we're not talking about a service which survived on the Nihon Kiin's dime. As was stated earlier in the thread, we're talking about a service which was self-sufficient, and is now being sold out from under them. AND the reason being given, is to divert money to another venture, one which was less successful, and ultimately closed.

Honestly, the ones that the SGC owes for its continued existence are the SGC themselves. I support the SGC's position here entirely, and I don't believe that we owe so much to the Nihon Kiin that we should dismantle our infrastructure just to please a whim.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...


This post by shapenaji was liked by: imabuddha
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #38 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:32 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
When I was at the Seattle Go Center, on one day there were about a dozen, on another day two players.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #39 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:35 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1103
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 408
Was liked: 422
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
RobertJasiek wrote:
When I was at the Seattle Go Center, on one day there were about a dozen, on another day two players.


Anecdotal evidence here... I'm operating from the previous statements that the center was self-sufficient, if that is NOT the case, I would be more than willing to adjust my position.

If the center IS self-sufficient, then seeing 12 people one day, and 2 people another is immaterial.

_________________
Tactics yes, Tact no...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Post #40 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:51 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
shapenaji wrote:
If the center IS self-sufficient, then seeing 12 people one day, and 2 people another is immaterial.


The center has been self-sufficient as long as a tenant has been in place. There have been periods when that has not been the case, but over the long haul the SGC has done well.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 201 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 11  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group