Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan

daal · **#61**

oren wrote:

EdLee wrote:

Again, my gut feeling for the SGC's honte reply in this case is "Thank you."
This lawsuit is extremely bad shape to me.

So you say you don't know the details, but you've made a decision already. I think you should be patient and do more reading before playing a move.

Nice metaphor, but remember - we're only kibbitzers. While it's fun to shout "Resign!" we should remember that we're not the ones playing, and we don't have all the information.

What I've read is that the SGC made their decision to sue after waiting one month for the Nihon Ki-in to respond to its request for "negotiations." We don't know what form that took, and don't know why the Nihon Ki-in did not respond. While it does seem that the Nihon Ki-in at least owes the SGC an explanation, it's not clear that an explanation is what the SGC was interested in, and one month doesn't seem like a long time to wait. Aside from that, we also don't know many details of the arrangements made between any combination of: Iwamoto, the NK and the SGC. Furthermore, it is unclear to what extent the survival of the SGC, which claims to currently have "a strong financial situation with an active and vibrant membership" is dependent on the continued use of the building.

I for one agree that suing is at least bad shape, and more probably overplay, and quite possibly a blunder, but "thank you" is not honte - it's what you say when the game is over and the SGC is clearly not ready to resign.

PeterHB · **#62**

EdLee seems to have it expressed well my feeling on the subject. The Seattle Go Centre should have dug up the title deeds and read them twice before launching this legal action. Perhaps put a copy on their website. But most importantly read and understand what it means that the Nihon-Kiin (Japan) owns their building. Changing your mind is tough. I'm sure they believe that Kaoru Iwamoto gave them the building, but clearly that is not what the title deeds say. If Kaoru Iwamoto had intended to give the ownership to them, then rather obviously, he would have given ownership to them. The Seattle Go Centre needs to understand that point. It needs ramming home with a hammer. Then they need to think about how to behave towards someone who has been giving them a free lunch for many years, and happens to not to want to anymore, because they are having trouble eating themselves.

I don't see any record of the Seattle Go Centre going the extra mile before launching legal action. Before threats, a delegation to Japan, picketing the Nihon-Kiin HQ demanding to be heard, would be nearer to the action of a friend, and far cheaper than legal action. Demonstrating how deeply you care, not making threats.

shapenaji · **#63**

PeterHB wrote:

EdLee seems to have it expressed well my feeling on the subject. The Seattle Go Centre should have dug up the title deeds and read them twice before launching this legal action. Perhaps put a copy on their website. But most importantly read and understand what it means that the Nihon-Kiin (Japan) owns their building. Changing your mind is tough. I'm sure they believe that Kaoru Iwamoto gave them the building, but clearly that is not what the title deeds say. If Kaoru Iwamoto had intended to give the ownership to them, then rather obviously, he would have given ownership to them. The Seattle Go Centre needs to understand that point. It needs ramming home with a hammer. Then they need to think about how to behave towards someone who has been giving them a free lunch for many years, and happens to not to want to anymore, because they are having trouble eating themselves.

I don't see any record of the Seattle Go Centre going the extra mile before launching legal action. Before threats, a delegation to Japan, picketing the Nihon-Kiin HQ demanding to be heard, would be nearer to the action of a friend, and far cheaper than legal action. Demonstrating how deeply you care, not making threats.

I have to believe that they're in direct contact with the Nihon Kiin, and I highly doubt they have the funds to make all those kinds of pleas (a delegation to japan and picketing the Nihon Kiin HQ are both investments of thousands of dollars). This is a small claims court issue, a lawsuit is considerably cheaper...

Also, lets not forget, this is not an issue of the Nihon Kiin selling the location to help themselves back in Japan, this is so that they can try to restart the center in New York... I'm really confused why they would want to do this.

My hunch is that there has been blowback from closing it. I'm not sure where that criticism would come from... Why would they want to reopen the center in New York?

kusto · **#64**

do your parents still give you pocket money when you are big enough to support yourself? seattle has outgrown its 9x9 board and needs to fend for itself in the 19x19 the free stones could only last for so long.

shapenaji · **#65**

kusto wrote:

do your parents still give you pocket money when you are big enough to support yourself? seattle has outgrown its 9x9 board and needs to fend for itself in the 19x19 the free stones could only last for so long.

Um, I think the issue is considerably more complex than this...

RobertJasiek · **#66**

shapenaji wrote:

If the center IS self-sufficient, then seeing 12 people one day, and 2 people another is immaterial.

There are two aspects: 1) commercial balance (which is needed), 2) degree of go activity. The go center's intention appears of have been spreading go in Seattle (or maybe even western half of North America). If the actual go activity is as low as that of an arbitrary go club (in, say, a pub), then this can be a factor for a consideration to possibly discontinue the idea of having an SGC. I do not know if (2) has been considered by the involved bodies, but it might be an important factor in one of the involved bodies' motviation for its decisions.

hyperpape · **#67**

daal wrote:

What I've read is that the SGC made their decision to sue after waiting one month for the Nihon Ki-in to respond to its request for "negotiations." We don't know what form that took, and don't know why the Nihon Ki-in did not respond. While it does seem that the Nihon Ki-in at least owes the SGC an explanation, it's not clear that an explanation is what the SGC was interested in, and one month doesn't seem like a long time to wait.

This depends on the pace at which the Nihon Ki-In was acting. If they were clear that their own actions would take a leisurely pace, then you're right, it's a bad move to sue them after only a month. However, if they are actively seeking buyers at this moment, then you must do what you think is best immediately. We don't know that, so at most we should say "I sure hope you didn't rush this."

daal · **#68**

hyperpape wrote:

If they were clear that their own actions would take a leisurely pace, then you're right, it's a bad move to sue them after only a month. However, if they are actively seeking buyers at this moment, then you must do what you think is best immediately. We don't know that, so at most we should say "I sure hope you didn't rush this."

Yes, I agree. The point I was trying to make is that while the actions of the SGC may seem rash, few of us are privy to all the relevant information, and it would probably be prudent to refrain from making a snap judgment. The SGC has indeed made some serious allegations, including "fraud" and "breach of contract." Past generosity and support does not exempt the NK from whatever present responsibilities it may have. It is a shame that it has come to this, but it's no good to blame one party or to say that someone acted wrongly without having heard the whole story.

Uberdude · **#69**

Sigh.... silly litigious Americans.

hyperpape · **#70**

I know! Back when that coffee lawsuit happened, I told everyone "next thing you know, we'll have ridiculous lawsuits for made up things like 'breach of contract'."

Joaz Banbeck · **#71**

RobertJasiek wrote:

When I was at the Seattle Go Center, on one day there were about a dozen, on another day two players.

I was there a few years back, and the place was crowded. It was standing room only among the people watching the high dan games.

EdLee · **#72**

shapenaji wrote:

Again, we seem to be disagreeing on the definition of self-sufficient. If those from the SGC are correct, they have been producing enough funds to support rent for the space.

shapenaji wrote:

They do not own the building, though they pay rent on it (from what I understand). So, much like the law prevents landlords from merely kicking out tenants who are not in violation of the lease, the law could also prevent the Nihon Kiin from merely kicking out the SGC.

In fact, in some regions of the country, a tenant that has been around for as long as the SGC has, has additional rights.

As far as this being the Nihon Kiin's right, owing to their benefactor status. The Nihon Kiin may have started the SGC, but they are not solely responsible for what it has accomplished.

I'm afraid your attitude is out of place. You are demonizing these people without even clarifying the rights owed to a tenant (and one that has kept to the terms of the agreement).

You are welcome to think that the SGC has no claim here (As Ed believes), but your argument that "They are biting the hand that feeds them" has no more merit than the counterclaim that "The Nihon Kiin is being an abusive parent"

oren wrote:

The center has been self-sufficient as long as a tenant has been in place. There have been periods when that has not been the case, but over the long haul the SGC has done well.

Shapenaji, there's no disagreement whatsoever over the definition of self-sufficient.
Let's see: Iwamoto Sensei/Nihon Kiin let the SGC use the building "for free" for 16+ years. (Yes/No?)
Of course the SGC has to be self-sufficient. What, they want to use the building "for free"
AND they want Iwamoto Sensei/NHK to pay for SGC's expenses, too?
(Thus, my original question: what is the relevance of the self-sufficiency? )

And what did the SGC do exactly to obtain this building to begin with?
(I don't know the historical details at all, so historians please correct me.)
It seems that it was LUCK that Iwamoto Sensei picked Seattle (and New York).
He could have easily picked a different city, say Chicago or Los Angeles, instead of Seattle.
In fact, Iwamoto Sensei almost picked Santa Barbara (

), but it did not work out.

As I understand it from oren's quote above,
the SGC is not, nor has it ever been, a renter of the SGC building. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
If true, then the SGC did not pay any rent on it;
it's the opposite: the SGC receives rent from a tenant when they had one.

I understand it feels terrible to lose a nice Go center like the SGC.
But my feeling remains that the SGC should be grateful for their luck to have the building at all,
and grateful for the past 16+ years. Even if the NHK's decision "seems to be at odds with their charter."
The whole notion that the NHK "owes" anything to the SGC is quite strange, to me.

Redbeard · **#73**

I am a member of the Seattle Go Center, but I do not serve on the board of the SGC so I only know what has been publicly presented about this situation. I try to refrain from speculation, especially legal matters, but as an SGC member and L19 supporter I feel the need to make my personal thoughts known in this discussion.

My understanding is that there are legally binding contracts that would be violated by the Nihon Ki-in selling the SGC building outright and this lawsuit is meant to ensure that those contracts are fulfilled. There is also a question as to the right of the Nihon Ki-in to sell the building. Again, my limited understanding is that when the Go Centers were created, a non-profit trust was established to purchase them. That trust is managed by the Nihon Ki-in, but there is a limited scope of what can be done with the assets of that trust. It is very possible that the proposed action of the Nihon Ki-in violate the terms of that trust. There are other issues at stake in this suit, but I do not have clear knowledge of them so I will not comment on them.

This situation is not pleasant for anyone. I do know that this lawsuit was not brought about on frivolous grounds and that much thought was put into it. If there were any other way to ensure that the founding goals of The Seattle Go Center could be preserved, the SGC board would be taking it. I trust the board is working in the best interested of the Seattle Go Center, Iwamoto's trust, and all of the remaining Go Centers. All I can ask is that the Go community at large reserve judgment on both sides of this issue until all of the facts are clearly presented in the course of this unfortunate court case.

gowan · **#74**

I always thought that the money from Iwamoto was given to the Nihon Ki-in to manage in setting up the various go centers, it was not donated or lent to the go centers by Iwamoto. If that's true it would have a bearing on what the Nihon Ki-in does with the go centers.

Finally, NHK is not an abbreviation for Nihon Ki-in. NHK is the Japanese equivalent of Public Broadcasting in the USA.

hyperpape · **#75**

Ed, my brother got a scholarship to go to college. It was lucky of him that a private donor had specifically endowed a scholarship, and also lucky that this scholarship was earmarked to North Carolina residents. He was even more lucky, because despite being a great student in high school, doing various extracurriculars, etc, he was still only second in line. At the last minute, the kid in front of him won a scholarship to go to his father's alma mater and my brother was given the scholarship. But for all that luck, once he accepted it, he was entitled to that scholarship for the next four years.

I think this is a case where it really does all come down to the law. If Iwamoto's bequest creates an obligation to use it for the sake of the Seattle Go Center that isn't cancelled by the current circumstances, then it doesn't matter how lucky Seattle is. I only hope the SGC isn't being rash and pressing a dubious case, but if the law favors them, they shouldn't sit back and think "gosh, we were so lucky, shame it's over".

Redbeard · **#76**

FYI-
For those who have questions about who pays for the Seattle Go Center I can state the following.

The Seattle Go Center building is a two story structure. The lower floor is leased to a commercial tenant and the upper floor is used for the Go Center itself. The SGC manages the building as a whole and is responsible for all property taxes and maintenance fees. The income from the commercial tenant and SGC membership fees are used for this purpose and for the day to day expenses of keeping the SGC open.

To my knowledge, the SGC has not asked for or required funds from the Nihon Ki-in for operation expenses or building maintenance. Outside of an initial loan given to to the SGC to purchase equipment when the club opened, which may have been part of the Iwamoto trust, the Nihon Ki-in has had no financial input on The Seattle Go Center.

Javaness2 · **#77**

Redbeard wrote:

My understanding is that there are legally binding contracts that would be violated by the Nihon Ki-in selling the SGC building outright and this lawsuit is meant to ensure that those contracts are fulfilled.

This is what I understood to be the basis of the case. You can make arguments such as "The Nihon Kiin are nice honourable important people, and do not deserved to be sued", and most of us will nod there. You can say "Iwamoto's trust fund should not be ravaged." many of us will nod there.

My first thought was, "have Seattle gone nuts", but I find that hard to believe, I find it hard to believe the Kiin have gone bonkers either. What is going on here?

I find the following paragraph very interesting
"The Nihon Ki-in has not given any reason for its decision to revive the New York Go Center at the expense of Seattle’s, either publicly or to Seattle Go Center Directors or to the American Go Association Board, which has requested one" it means to me, at least, that the money is being used to set up a new Go center in New York - something that one could imagine would be in keeping with any legal arrangements around some sort of trust fund.

However, didn't Mrs Kobayashi come to the NY Go Centre, tell them they had failed, and then close it...?

Then I read this passage "During a January 23, 2012 Seattle Go Center board meeting which Executive Director Kobayashi personally attended, Kobayashi told the Seattle Go Center directors that the Seattle Go Center building had been purchased and remodeled with unrestricted funds provided by the Nihon Ki-in. We believe that statement was false."

This is quite mysterious indeed.
From my understanding of the culture, it must be the last thing the Kiin expected

I must take a look at Executive Director Kobayashi's blog to see if there are any clues there.

Oh by the way, new Nihon Kiin summer school for westerners was just advertised.

Javaness2 · **#78**

Can anyone provide a decent translation of this page - http://blog.goo.ne.jp/33612534201/e/708 ... 85811ae991

Checking out her blog, this one looks relevant

Code:

Tokyo Yomiuri Shimbun evening edition May 11, 1987;

Kaoru Iwamoto Go oldest community in Japan. Uchitsuzuke the game of Go was an era hid two generations Taisho, Showa, over 70 years. Sprinkle the stone from the board to hit, "Go throw beans" is attached to the Kifu nickname. Sometimes at the beginning of the Showa withdrew the world go, who emigrated to Brazil. Mr. Iwamoto was heard 85-year-old now, have a passion to promote overseas investment of up to private property.
◇
- First, let's hear from or talk about the house was donated 530 million yen worth of land to the Nihon Ki.
Because it is my desire that, to spread abroad the Go, seeks to use for that.

- Is there a good way to spread effectively?
In my experience was spread Kaigai several times, in the first place, to establish a Center Go to the city promising, secondly, to its center, two years or one year, teaching to stay long-term players young If the population will increase dramatically go. There are also some such conclusion in talks with foreign people. Is not asked to raise funds to build the center in that particular moment. For now the San Francisco Sao Paulo North America, South America is a candidate site.

- Is not that what she had said, Do I have gone into the private property ... why.
There is no pride as a man. I four years ago, as the Board of Directors of Nihon Ki is made you decide to build a center go to Sao Paulo. I have been told can not be if there is no assistance in various fields, and "Wait a little more because building a hall now go to China" is not raised to ask the president Yoshihiro Inayama Nihon Ki. How China is not completed last summer, now is the appreciation of the yen, difficult to collect donations Even. Also director Yoshiaki Iro-bu is said "Why do not we a little Miokuro" ....

- What is private property of the gun up.
After the decision by the Board, Nde I have a promise to build a center go I go out in São Paulo, Brazil. To quit as a man does not go. In Sao Paulo, the local branch of the Japanese construction company, then I have to treat more than 500 square meters of land already, the building can be done if more than 100 million yen after ten thousand 2,3000. I, I thought I was massaging and not only about 100 million yen I own land and building. Had to say I was nervous because it massaged 500 000 000 and get an expert to evaluate it. Is the gate like a good example of how naive that I have Gouchi. I sold 's take on the personal tax. Donated to the Nihon Ki real estate there, it 's because it can be used more effectively in the hands of Nihon Ki can do the foundation.

- Real estate has been donated, do not you home?
Accommodation of foreigners, I was using, such as Saron Go to your study group with his disciples, amateur. I do about 15 minutes walk from Ebisu Station electric JR. I for dissemination abroad, but has been living in a foreign country several times, during which time I got home bear in often. However, most of us just to stay over and take care of the meal does not get them. Western people, but will tell me, protect your privacy, personal privacy is a very well kept and certainly it is. And Japan's, because you try to treat the same family, if a day or two anyway, home will be destroyed when long-lasting. I thought this was and is, we have to design the facility accommodate a foreigner there. When keenly felt during the seven years from 1961, turned the United States and Europe over more than a year and a half.

- So soon after returning home?
Ieie if there is no money. I bought 42 years at 10 million yen 145 square meters of land, was a four-story building can be reinforced, of approximately 300 square meters is a summer 44 years. It took about 17 million yen. Floor accommodation is four, young people without money, was raised to stay over for free. You still single disciple in Kono (Yukio stage four), I Sumikon me as a person in management. Most just pass the keys of the room What you have to Kono. I do not mind Ikko is not attempted to come back in time.

- If there are no such facilities, did not you? Be troubled foreigner coming to Japan we now?
Nearly 20 years since the completion, would have played another role. It also has changed era. Foreigners come to study in Japan is so neat preparation of accommodation now. (Excitation stage nine) you start a song, you're doing fine and everyone to a crowd of people his disciples. Everyone who is also the support of flax, who has acknowledged my passion to spread overseas. (Reporter justice Fujii)

Kaoru Iwamoto (Kaoru Iwamoto) Born in 1902 in Shimane Prefecture. Input stage of the stage six years will be to apprentice six years Heijiro Hirose Taisho 2. Had immigrated to Brazil in 1929 withdrew from the Nihon Ki stage four times, returning to give up the business six years, reversion to the players. Bathe the baptism of the atomic bomb in the second game handicap office holder of the Honinbo title challenge against the third stage in the town Futsukaichi Hiroshima 20 years. The fourth stage the third stage holder of the Honinbo title 21 years, 22 years. Nine stage 42 years, awarded Medal with Purple Ribbon. Isao Zuihosho awarded three years, etc. 48. Retirement 58 years, during which time the Nihon Ki serve President, the Vice President.

http://igo.web.infoseek.co.jp/cgi-bin/dailyigo2/news.cgi?mode=past&no=55 

balistic · **#79**

When i hear the Seattle Go Center complaining about not hearing from the Nihon Ki-in and feeling they are owed an explaination i call them hypocrits.

The SGC has publicly started a war stating the Nihon Ki-in breached contract and are fraudulent. Inciting a whole public smear campaign. Yet they are not providing the public with the information on what they have specifically done wrong, nor provided anything to back it up. If they dont feel we need to know this kind of information, then they shouldnt have brought the matter up publicly. :salute:

The Nihon Ki-in is the one caught up in this with a reputation to diminish.

EdLee · **#80**

hyperpape,

hyperpape wrote:

I think this is a case where it really does all come down to the law. ...
I only hope the SGC isn't being rash and pressing a dubious case, but if the law favors them,
they shouldn't sit back and think "gosh, we were so lucky, shame it's over".

No, hyperpape. That's where we disagree. It does not necessarily all come down to the law.
Of course, everybody hopes the SGC isn't being rash and pressing a frivolous case,
but even if the law favors them and it's non-frivolous, it does not necessarily follow they have to sue.
Yes, as Redbeard and others have stated, we all hope the SGC has already studied all other variations.
And as he and balistic pointed out, we don't have all the details. We're only kibbitzers (daal). So, that's that.

(gowan, I also realized about "NHK"... the Nihon Kiin has no official acronym; it's just for the sake of this thread. Maybe "NhK"?

)

Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan

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