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Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5849		 Page 2 of 11
Author:  Jedo [ Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
illluck wrote:
Also interesting is that it is very likely that there's no real plan to reopen the NY centre - apparently that centre was... less than successful.


This was partially due to the Kiin itself. They stubbornly refused to allow the building to be partially renovated in order to allow us to rent out the top floors; something that would have made the center more than self-sufficient.

My guess is that legally there's not much that the SGC can do, but I think the recent actions of the Kiin have been wrong and have directly gone against Iwamoto's wishes. The SGC was able to break even, so it was not a drain to the Kiin in any way. They claim that they want to route the funds to the NYGC, but these funds were never needed, the aforementioned renovation was not a very inexpensive investment and would have generated a profit. The Kiin has shown again and again that international spreading of go is not their priority, even if that means going against the wishes of someone who donated money specifically for that purpose.
Author:  mhlepore [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
As someone who played for years at both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center, I am sad to see them both suffer recently. I don't know legally who is on more solid ground, and I don't know the financial realities facing the Nihon-Kiin. Most of us at this point are just speculating from afar.

I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?
Author:  speedchase [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
mhlepore wrote:
I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
mhlepore wrote:
As someone who played for years at both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center


What are the average numbers of players per go playing day? How many days per week?
Author:  shapenaji [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
speedchase wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.


The SGC is a unique location in this country, it's taken years to build. Even if the economy improved and the center could later be reopened, it could take years for it to return to its same status.

I don't think it's selfish to fight for something like this.

And to be fair, US-Japan relations are less vital right now than US-Korea relations. Japan is no longer the only game in town.
Author:  mhlepore [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
RobertJasiek wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
As someone who played for years at both the Seattle Go Center and the New York Go Center


What are the average numbers of players per go playing day? How many days per week?


I played in NY more than a decade ago. Seattle was 2002-2004. So keeping in mind that my experiences are dated, Seattle seemed to have more regulars attending and more formal events, but I can't put a number on it. Both I believe were closed one day a week. NYGC had an entire townhouse in prime space of mid-town Manhattan and there seemed to be a larger contingent of Japanese players there than in Seattle. I enjoyed both.
Author:  PeterHB [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
speedchase wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.

And the rest. The US isn't the whole world. The NHK had reached out trying to promote Go all over the world. I don't sue my family and I don't sue my friends, unless I don't want them as friends anymore. The only people who gain from legal action are lawyers with your money. I doubt that Japanese people sue their friends either. It will make them think who their friends are, who they want to be involved with. That is no 'win' for anyone.
Author:  jts [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
PeterHB wrote:
speedchase wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
I am just afraid of the endgame. The potential benefits of winning a lawsuit are localized (benefitting primarily the Seattle area). The potential costs of an ugly legal battle with lots of resources spent, regardless of legal outcome, could impact US-Japan Go relations going forward. Or am I overstating the negative?

No, I agree. Even if the NHK was behaving poorly, this seems like a selfish move by the SGC.

And the rest. The US isn't the whole world. The NHK had reached out trying to promote Go all over the world. I don't sue my family and I don't sue my friends, unless I don't want them as friends anymore. The only people who gain from legal action are lawyers with your money. I doubt that Japanese people sue their friends either. It will make them think who their friends are, who they want to be involved with. That is no 'win' for anyone.

By the same token, friends don't evict friends from their homes. So while I understand your general attitude - that if you flatter the Nihon Kiin that their actions are always noble and just, perhaps they will remember your obeisance if they ever again feel the need to promote Go elsewhere in the world - I can also understand why the Seattle community does not see the Kiin's actions as the actions of a friend.
Author:  PeterHB [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
jts wrote:
- that if you flatter the Nihon Kiin that their actions are always noble and just, perhaps they will remember your obeisance if they ever again feel the need to promote Go elsewhere in the world -

Just for clarity, the above statement by jts does not represent my view. Nearly the opposite represents my view. Shows the danger of believing you are summarizing someone's view. Considering I have been quite the opposite of silent on my views, it might be easier to let people read them and form their own opinion of my views.
Author:  illluck [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
I think jts is expanding on your metaphor with family and friends. The fact that you don't agree suggests that the metaphor is not an apt one.
Author:  PeterHB [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
illluck wrote:
I think jts is expanding on your metaphor with family and friends. The fact that you don't agree suggests that the metaphor is not an apt one.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. You will note that I didn't disagree with the part where he extended the metaphor actually. That part seemed quite well put and sensible. That's why I only quoted the part I disagreed with, the part that tried to put words into my mouth, wholly inaccurately.
Author:  illluck [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Ah, sorry then. I've had a terrible time with reading on and off the board today :oops:
Author:  wessanenoctupus [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
jts wrote:

IANAL, btw.



Oh do you?
Author:  jts [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
PeterHB wrote:
jts wrote:
- that if you flatter the Nihon Kiin that their actions are always noble and just, perhaps they will remember your obeisance if they ever again feel the need to promote Go elsewhere in the world -

Just for clarity, the above statement by jts does not represent my view. Nearly the opposite represents my view. Shows the danger of believing you are summarizing someone's view. Considering I have been quite the opposite of silent on my views, it might be easier to let people read them and form their own opinion of my views.

I apologize if I misread your views. You said that the Kiin was trying to spread go not just in Seattle, not just in the US, but in the whole world, and that resisting their decision about Seattle would make them (I assume you mean, the Nihon Kiin) think about who their "real friends" are. I assumed that that implies the converse, as well - don't resist their decisions, no questions raised about friendship.
Author:  balistic [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
Code:
There are not enough facts in this thread so my view could be completely wrong, but i will chime in based on what i see.


The sign says funded by, not donated by. :scratch:

From what i have read so far i think the SGC should be ashamed of themselves. The Nihon ki-in provided what they could for as long as they felt that they could. Instead of being met with gratitude for what they had given in the past, it appears that they are now being hit with an irrational argument of self entitlement?

Kaoru Iwamoto i would think, would be proud that he was able to contribute to the growth of the game abroad while it was able to happen. However when the money runs dry, i do not think this means that his vision has failed. Nor do i think the SGC has any reason to complain. If someone lent me money, i wouldnt be suprised or angry when they want it returned and i certainly wouldnt feel entitled to it and try to sue them for leaving me with what i had to begin with. :roll:

The project has come to an end and perhaps the strategy could have been better for everyone if played differently. But this is the way it has to turned out, and like in our own games we have to accept the outcome.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
balistic wrote:
From what i have read so far i think the SGC should be ashamed of themselves.
The Nihon ki-in provided what they could for as long as they felt that they could.
Instead of being met with gratitude for what they had given in the past
My feelings exactly.

EVEN IF the SGC has legal grounds to sue, this is ridiculous.

Iwamoto Sensei and the Nihon Kiin supported Go in NY and Seattle (and other parts of the world)
for so many years. Now, everybody knows Go in Japan is on the decline and the Nihon Kiin is not
what it used to be. Instead of supporting and be thankful to the Nihon Kiin, the SGC is suing.
This is ridiculous.

The Chinese understand this. The Chinese Go Association is doing whatever they can
to support and help the Nihon Kiin, because they understand how people like Fujisawa Shuko Sensei
helped re-build Go in China in the 1980's.
Author:  shapenaji [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
balistic wrote:
From what i have read so far i think the SGC should be ashamed of themselves.
The Nihon ki-in provided what they could for as long as they felt that they could.
Instead of being met with gratitude for what they had given in the past
My feelings exactly.

EVEN IF the SGC has legal grounds to sue, this is ridiculous.

Iwamoto Sensei, and the Nihon Kiin supported Go in NY and Seattle (and other parts of the world)
for so many years. Now, everybody knows Go in Japan is on the decline and the Nihon Kiin is not
what it used to be. Instead of supporting and be thankful to the Nihon Kiin, the SGC is suing.
This is ridiculous.

The Chinese understand this. The Chinese Go Association is doing whatever they can
to support and help the Nihon Kiin, because they understand how people like Fujisawa Shuko Sensei
helped re-build Go in China in the 1980's.


Ed we're not talking about a service which survived on the Nihon Kiin's dime. As was stated earlier in the thread, we're talking about a service which was self-sufficient, and is now being sold out from under them. AND the reason being given, is to divert money to another venture, one which was less successful, and ultimately closed.

Honestly, the ones that the SGC owes for its continued existence are the SGC themselves. I support the SGC's position here entirely, and I don't believe that we owe so much to the Nihon Kiin that we should dismantle our infrastructure just to please a whim.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
When I was at the Seattle Go Center, on one day there were about a dozen, on another day two players.
Author:  shapenaji [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
RobertJasiek wrote:
When I was at the Seattle Go Center, on one day there were about a dozen, on another day two players.


Anecdotal evidence here... I'm operating from the previous statements that the center was self-sufficient, if that is NOT the case, I would be more than willing to adjust my position.

If the center IS self-sufficient, then seeing 12 people one day, and 2 people another is immaterial.
Author:  oren [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seattle Go Center sues Nihon Ki-in Japan
shapenaji wrote:
If the center IS self-sufficient, then seeing 12 people one day, and 2 people another is immaterial.


The center has been self-sufficient as long as a tenant has been in place. There have been periods when that has not been the case, but over the long haul the SGC has done well.
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