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KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=530		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  deja [ Thu May 13, 2010 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
dfan didn't want his thread to devolve into a policy debate on KGS escapers, so I thought I would start this thread which explicitly puts the KGS policy up for examination.

For myself, I think escaping from a game is the equivalent of flipping the board when you're losing and stomping away like a child. The problem is that no one can definitively tell who exhibited such child-like behavior when checking KGS game records – the italicized record is the same for both players whether you were the first to stomp away like a three-year old or not. Sure – who cares, move on, there are far more important things in life to fret over, don't worry be happy, yada, yada, yada. I completely agree. It's a silly issue to worry about.

Nevertheless, I can understand the frustration by some given the ambiguous policy that KGS puts out there concerning escapers versus the implicit "we don't care" attitude that KGS admins practice. What I wish the KGS policy on escapers would state is something like the following:

"We don't care about escapers and will not expend any of our valuable time and energy addressing such inconsequential issues. If escapers bother you, then KGS is not the server for you and you should go somewhere else to play."

Is that so hard to say as a matter of policy? The current policy – http://www.gokgs.com/help/faq/escapers.html, as I read it, doesn't really get at the true sentiments of KGS practice or Bill Shubert concerning escapers – http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6221#p6221. I don't see why policy statements need to be couched in PC language simply because to do otherwise would demonstrate an indifference to an issue that some people find important. You can't please everyone, so why cultivate the illusion?

If it's a nonissue for the powers to be then why not make that as explicit as possible? Being up front and honest from the start goes a long way with people and it would also circumvent much silly debate and complaining about escapers.
Author:  kirkmc [ Thu May 13, 2010 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
Yep.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu May 13, 2010 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
KGS escaper policy is fine, I think. Other policies work, too. I don't think I've tried out a server that has an escaper policy where this has been an issue for me. I actually don't encounter a ton of escapers. If I do, I can play another game.

I don't really care for the KGS TOS, but these are all just details that don't really matter to me, I think.

What makes me more mad is when I feel like I almost have won a game, and then I screw it up. That gives me much more frustration than anything else (well, losing from the start isn't nice, either, but at least in that case it's not so frustrating!).
Author:  hackinger [ Thu May 13, 2010 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
Nope! (in response to the first post)

It is enough to explain the policy as done for instance by jyem:
http://www.igoweb.org/~jyem/

Serial escapers are caught by the system.

For tournaments it makes sense that a referee decides who wins the game
if one party escapes. For normal games this would only be feasible
if it is a paid service.

I am not saying that the situation is ideal, but I see the difficulties
to decide by algorithm who is the culprit unless somebody escapes repeatedly.

Cheers

hackinger
Author:  deja [ Thu May 13, 2010 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
hackinger wrote:
Nope! (in response to the first post)

It is enough to explain the policy as done for instance by jyem:
http://www.igoweb.org/~jyem/


Not bad, but is this a KGS statement of policy or jyem's statement of policy? I don't see "Admins don't deal with escaping" anywhere on the KGS site. Regardless, such a statement needs to be present on the KGS site. Why isn't it?
Author:  Kirby [ Thu May 13, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
deja wrote:
hackinger wrote:
Nope! (in response to the first post)

It is enough to explain the policy as done for instance by jyem:
http://www.igoweb.org/~jyem/


Not bad, but is this a KGS statement of policy or jyem's statement of policy? I don't see "Admins don't deal with escaping" anywhere on the KGS site. Regardless, such a statement needs to be present on the KGS site. Why isn't it?


As I understand it, what's on jyem's page is considered an extension of the TOS. If that's really the case, it would make sense to consolidate it on the main page, I think. That's part of the reason I mentioned the TOS in my previous response.
Author:  xed_over [ Thu May 13, 2010 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
deja wrote:
I don't see "Admins don't deal with escaping" anywhere on the KGS site.

I see it here:
KGS FAQ wrote:
Whatever you do, don't start screaming in a chat room about it. It won't help, and it will annoy other people. What has to be done ... happens automatically.
Author:  wms [ Thu May 13, 2010 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
deja wrote:
"We don't care about escapers and will not expend any of our valuable time and energy addressing such inconsequential issues. If escapers bother you, then KGS is not the server for you and you should go somewhere else to play."
I would not say that this is an accurate description of the KGS attitude towards escapers. I think that the KGS help page you pointed to is accurate. If you want me to say what KGS admins view escapers, it is "The KGS server handles escapers automatically in most cases. We're willing to let it do what it is designed to do." If you were to read the help pages, I think it says the same thing in a lot more detail.
Author:  deja [ Thu May 13, 2010 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
xed_over wrote:
deja wrote:
I don't see "Admins don't deal with escaping" anywhere on the KGS site.

I see it here:
KGS FAQ wrote:
Whatever you do, don't start screaming in a chat room about it. It won't help, and it will annoy other people. What has to be done ... happens automatically.

Hardly an explicit statement saying "Admins don't deal with escaping," which is precisely the point of my post. The current Help and FAQ pages say nothing regarding "Admins don't deal with escaping." Moreover, what part of the following KGS statement indicates that KGS admins don't concern themselves with escapers - "Yelling, screaming, complaining to the admins, won't help, only waiting will help."
Author:  deja [ Thu May 13, 2010 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
wms wrote:
deja wrote:
"We don't care about escapers and will not expend any of our valuable time and energy addressing such inconsequential issues. If escapers bother you, then KGS is not the server for you and you should go somewhere else to play."
I would not say that this is an accurate description of the KGS attitude towards escapers. I think that the KGS help page you pointed to is accurate. If you want me to say what KGS admins view escapers, it is "The KGS server handles escapers automatically in most cases. We're willing to let it do what it is designed to do." If you were to read the help pages, I think it says the same thing in a lot more detail.

I did read the help pages.

Here's your response to SpongeBob:

wms wrote:
SpongeBob wrote:
With all due respect, it seems that you do not want to see the problems with the escaper system, I have to say.

That's pretty much correct, but it's because there is never (AFAIK) anything new to say. It's always upset people complaining "so-and-so escaped" over and over again. If I thought escapes didn't happen, then that would be worth listening to, but I already know that escapes happen, and hearing a rant on each one isn't anything helpful.

As I've said many, many times: Yes, escapes happen. You will be escaped from sometimes on KGS. The server will catch some of those and award you a win (this is for the escapes from people who do so often). Some of them you will never get your win for. Hopefully occasional escapes is something you can deal with, if not, well, then I guess you do need to go to a different go server. I've been escaped from too. It's no big deal. I consider the game a win and get on with my life.

Hey, I'm on your side. I just think the current set of statements on KGS concerning escapers is too wishy washy. Why couldn't you just state, "Hopefully occasional escapes is something you can deal with, if not, well, then I guess you do need to go to a different go server" on the KGS page? Apparently you felt no misgivings stating it here on L19.
Author:  wms [ Thu May 13, 2010 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
deja wrote:
Hardly an explicit statement saying "Admins don't deal with escaping," which is precisely the point of my post. The current Help and FAQ pages say nothing regarding "Admins don't deal with escaping." Moreover, what part of the following KGS statement indicates that KGS admins don't concern themsleves with escapers - "Yelling, screaming, complaining to the admins, won't help, only waiting will help."
Right, I say things happen automatically, but I don't explicitly say that admins aren't involved.

Oops! I also don't say that admins won't come to your house and advise you on joseki. Should I say that, too? Should I explicitly state that admins don't help you chew your food if you eat as you are logged in to KGS?

The help pages are clear about how to deal with escapers. Deja, the fact that you think it is incomplete indicates to me that you have an axe to grind more than anything else.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu May 13, 2010 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
deja wrote:
xed_over wrote:
deja wrote:
I don't see "Admins don't deal with escaping" anywhere on the KGS site.

I see it here:
KGS FAQ wrote:
Whatever you do, don't start screaming in a chat room about it. It won't help, and it will annoy other people. What has to be done ... happens automatically.


Hardly an explicit statement saying "Admins don't deal with escaping," which is precisely the point of my post. The current Help and FAQ pages say nothing regarding "Admins don't deal with escaping." Moreover, what part of the following KGS statement indicates that KGS admins don't concern themsleves with escapers - "Yelling, screaming, complaining to the admins, won't help, only waiting will help."


Overall, this is not a real problem for me. I just grumble about it to myself (and on the forum a bit, I guess :-p). My "grumble" about TOS is that it is rather brief, but on the other hand, I don't think that it is meant to be an exhaustive legal document. If the TOS was all-inclusive, it would be very difficult to understand for a lot of people. So basically, I think that KGS just selects admins that they feel are trustworthy to make good decisions, which can be difficult to define since people have different ideas and preferences.

I think that KGS has done a decent job of satisfying people since there are so many people that use it. It's also nice that there's a wishlist to suggest for changes to KGS.

When go becomes more popular, some people may have the ambition to make new servers that have policies that more people agree with, but for now, I appreciate KGS as an English go server. Yeah, I grumble about the TOS and some silly issues sometimes, but these minor issues don't prevent me from watching games, getting to know new people, and having fun playing.
Author:  deja [ Thu May 13, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
wms wrote:
deja wrote:
Hardly an explicit statement saying "Admins don't deal with escaping," which is precisely the point of my post. The current Help and FAQ pages say nothing regarding "Admins don't deal with escaping." Moreover, what part of the following KGS statement indicates that KGS admins don't concern themsleves with escapers - "Yelling, screaming, complaining to the admins, won't help, only waiting will help."
Right, I say things happen automatically, but I don't explicitly say that admins aren't involved.

Oops! I also don't say that admins won't come to your house and advise you on joseki. Should I say that, too? Should I explicitly state that admins don't help you chew your food if you eat as you are logged in to KGS?

The help pages are clear about how to deal with escapers. Deja, the fact that you think it is incomplete indicates to me that you have an axe to grind more than anything else.


Ok, I guess I've touched a nerve. My apologies, Bill. I was simply expressing my opinion about what I feel is an unnecessary ambiguity in the KGS policy on escapers, which if made more explicit would perhaps help prevent undue public anxiety over the whole ridiculous thing. I don't have an axe to grind on this issue. I actually agree with you.
Author:  averell [ Thu May 13, 2010 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
Even if there were ambiguity, i seriously doubt >1% of KGS users ever read the TOS, and there is no need to. Newbies that don't know about escaping start crying in the EGR, they get pointed at the FAQ. Repeat as necessary. Therefore fixing a policy document won't do any good, people aren't interested in legalities on a game server, they just come to play.
Author:  Solomon [ Thu May 13, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
The difference between KGS and other servers is that KGS takes a automated approach to dealing with escapers that's done by the server itself. Therefore an add-on to the TOS on what KGS admins can or can't do regarding escapers is excessive because the TOS clearly states that the server does the work.

Other servers, such as Tygem, don't have servers do the work and instead choose to have admins take care of escapers by having them manually enter games where the user sends a complaint and, if deemed necessary, give the user a win. In this regard it makes sense for their policy to discuss about what admins can or can't do regarding escapers in their policy because it pertains to one of their responsibilities.

Anyways, if you disagreed with me on all of this, it is nonetheless unreasonable to expect the comment "We don't care about escapers and will not expend any of our valuable time and energy addressing such inconsequential issues. If escapers bother you, then KGS is not the server for you and you should go somewhere else to play." to be put into the KGS TOS. To me, it's a loaded statement that's more opinion than fact and brings off bad vibe.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu May 13, 2010 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
Araban wrote:
... In this regard it makes sense for their policy to discuss about what admins can or can't do regarding escapers in their policy because it pertains to one of their responsibilities.
...


I think one problem is that some people have a misconception of what a KGS admin's responsibilities are. They might assume that an admin is there for the purpose of dealing with such matters. But I guess this misconception is cleared up on a case-by-case basis, so it's not really a big deal.

The current system works even without a TOS in this regard:
1.) User complains about an escaper to the EGR or to an admin.
2.) Admin says the system deals with it automatically.
3.) User finds out what KGS policy is.

I disagree with the point that adding more clarification to the TOS is not useful, however (although the quoted statement is not the right wording, probably). I think that the more (accurate) information that's added to the TOS, the better. But it is also not something worth getting worked up about (to me), because of the other benefits that KGS has.
Author:  deja [ Thu May 13, 2010 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
Araban wrote:
Anyways, if you disagreed with me on all of this, it is nonetheless unreasonable to expect the comment "We don't care about escapers and will not expend any of our valuable time and energy addressing such inconsequential issues. If escapers bother you, then KGS is not the server for you and you should go somewhere else to play." to be put into the KGS TOS. To me, it's a loaded statement that's more opinion than fact and brings off bad vibe.

If I read Bill's response to SpongeBob correctly, it seems to be an "opinion" that he shares. Bill doesn't want to hear about escapers, admins don't want to hear about escapers, you don't want to hear about escapers, I don't want to hear about escapers. If players can't deal with escapers, they need to find another go server – plain and simple. Why is stating this such a bitter pill to swallow? It's already been publicly expressed by the proprietor of KGS, so what's the big deal?

I agree my version is too crass, so how about consolidating what's already been publicly accepted and acknowledged into a single unambiguous KGS statement on escapers:

"Admins don't deal with escaping, the system does. Hopefully occasional escapes are something you can deal with, if not, well, then I guess you do need to go to a different go server."

By the way, disagreement is a good thing and not a bad thing.
Author:  rubin427 [ Thu May 13, 2010 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
wms wrote:
...admins don't help you chew your food if you eat as you are logged in to KGS...


Just wait until you hear what special stuff we're having for dinner tonight at my house, you just might change your mind.

(um, we're having Mexican)
Author:  Jedo [ Thu May 13, 2010 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
I just wish that escaped games would automatically count as a loss unless the other persona agrees to suspend play.
Author:  Andrea [ Thu May 13, 2010 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: KGS escaper policy - explicit enough?
deja wrote:
Why couldn't you just state, "Hopefully occasional escapes is something you can deal with, if not, well, then I guess you do need to go to a different go server" on the KGS page?
Does anyone really need an explicit statement? When you go into a shop, do you see a big sign saying "We offer goods and services. If you don't like them, you need to go to a different shop"? No. Some things we should have worked out while we were still in junior school.

KGS policy is what it is, and the operators of the service are happy with it. I'm sure they also know some people don't like the policy, but they're OK with that too. Can't we leave this issue alone?
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