Life In 19x19
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Etiquette Question
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6253		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ortho [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Etiquette Question
Reasonably often my opponents pass, and I pass, and then when we go to count they will undo if they are behind and start invading everywhere.

Is this poor etiquette? I am getting better and killing the stones and dont mind the practice so much at this point, but inevitably sometimes I blunder and have lost games in "overtime" and it makes me sort of mad, especially if I am low on time because I used some of that time for counting! :rambo:

I'm just wondering what the general feeling about this is. I feel that it's sort of cheating.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
I feel that it's bad etiquette to use the KGS scorer like that, but really the whole situation seems odd to me. If they have a sequence which they can't see if it works or not, why would they wait until after they pass to try it? At the very latest, they could've played it after the final half-point ko had been resolved (though it probably would have been worth it much sooner). Overall, I think this is a problem that you'll see largely disappear as you get stronger, as your opponents aren't going to be stupid enough to wait until after you've both passed once to try to mess up your territory if they see something they think might work.

I'd say the thing to do after something like that has worked against you would be to review and see if the opponent's moves were legitimate or if you just screwed up. If they were legitimate, well then you should have protected at some point :). If they weren't, you've found an area you can improve in :). We all have to learn how to handle moves that we don't believe should work but are nevertheless annoying to answer.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
Each server has its own rules and end of game procedure. It is not cheating. If you do not like it, complain to the server.

After two passes, the clocks should stop. You should not be losing time at that point.
Author:  hyperpape [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
My sense is that regardless of what it's currently treated as, it should be seen as a form of cheating. Score estimator is blocked for players. This gives a much bigger advantage than calling SE and is also obnoxious and abusive towards other players.
Author:  Ortho [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
Bill Spight wrote:
Each server has its own rules and end of game procedure. It is not cheating. If you do not like it, complain to the server.

After two passes, the clocks should stop. You should not be losing time at that point.


In this instance, the clocks restart as soon as one player does undo. Going for a time win if your opponent is in overtime is one of the reasons players do this.

But thanks for the replies. Complaining to KGS about this is clearly pointless. I guess it's also in the server rules that I can go ahead and see how it comes out and just escape if I don't like the revised score, but that's not really how I want to play. I've just taken to censoring automatch players who do this.
Author:  Mike Novack [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
Ortho wrote:
Reasonably often my opponents pass, and I pass, and then when we go to count they will undo if they are behind and start invading everywhere.


Sorry, I don't understand. That may be because I don't play on the servers (we only have dial-up and only one phone line; no cell service out here in the sticks).

What is your opponent undoing? In the situation you just described you made the last move (pass). Does "undo" allow the undoing of moves earlier than the last? That strikes me as a bug for games intended to be taken seriously (being able to undo earlier moves would allow for much more serious abuse than what you described).

OK, I can still see where you might have an objection. You pass, your opponent passes, and then upon seeing the score undoes his or her pass and starts invading ......... ( that is different from what you described)
Author:  Ortho [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
Mike Novack wrote:
Ortho wrote:
Reasonably often my opponents pass, and I pass, and then when we go to count they will undo if they are behind and start invading everywhere.


Sorry, I don't understand. That may be because I don't play on the servers (we only have dial-up and only one phone line; no cell service out here in the sticks).

What is your opponent undoing? In the situation you just described you made the last move (pass). Does "undo" allow the undoing of moves earlier than the last? That strikes me as a bug for games intended to be taken seriously (being able to undo earlier moves would allow for much more serious abuse than what you described).

OK, I can still see where you might have an objection. You pass, your opponent passes, and then upon seeing the score undoes his or her pass and starts invading ......... ( that is different from what you described)


After two passes KGS sends you to the marking dead stones phase. At this point either player can undo and you are returned to the game and the clocks start ticking again. This is presumably to allow for the filling in of dame etc when the server can't compute the score correctly. I see the ambiguity that you are pointing out but the order of passes doesnt affect players' ability to do this as far as I can tell. In today's game where it happened my opponent passed, I passed, we went to scoring, my opponent undid and made a move (no passes appear in the game record until the final two after we restarted) and it was my turn and my clock was ticking down from 30 seconds.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
Once you've both passed, you can see the score. Once you've properly marked all the dead groups, it will show you the accurate score, but you have to click "Done" for the game to finish (that way it knows that all of the dead groups have been marked). Apparently some people are clicking undo once they see the final score, but before they click Done, which allows them to undo the pass and continue playing.
Author:  Ortho [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
Yes, exactly that.
Author:  Nyanjilla [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
The "return to the game" option is there to enable players to patch up their territories if they notice there's a hole or other defect in their shapes at the scoring stage. There's no question about etiquette or otherwise in that case---it's essential for making sure that the score is correct.

But we know that some players do use that option to restart the game and try something desperate, after seeing the score. If that happens unreasonably, please call in an admin. It's amazing how many players suddenly decide to end the game properly when a star appears amidst the onlookers.
Author:  Ortho [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
Is there a way to make the clocks stop while you do that?
Author:  Nyanjilla [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
Ortho wrote:
Is there a way to make the clocks stop while you do that?


No, because it means that the players have continued the game, so the clocks are necessary.

(whups... I edited my post slightly while you were writing, to address the "etiquette" part of your question.... I don't think it affects your response, though.)
Author:  BaghwanB [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
Maybe I've just got my grumpiness up today, but if anyone did this to me more than once, they'd be blocked immediately.

2 passes and the game is over in my opinion. The only reason to start again at all would be a dispute over L/D of a given group. In a perfect world/server, you could then go to a "prove it" stage and resolve it.

I can see an occasional group being up for dispute, but multiple groups in a single game? That's just being jerky and hoping for a mistake AFTER you already declared the game done (as opposed to "pointless" invasions during "real" play). I don't think I've ever seen this happen IRL so to me it smacks of internet rudeness.

Bruce "Get off my board!" Young
Author:  Javaness2 [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
It's terrible etiquette in my eyes. You'd be entitled to leave a game like that.

Ortho wrote:
Reasonably often my opponents pass, and I pass, and then when we go to count they will
undo if they are behind and start invading everywhere.

Is this poor etiquette? I am getting better and killing the stones and dont mind the practice so much at this point, but inevitably sometimes I blunder and have lost games in "overtime" and it makes me sort of mad, especially if I am low on time because I used some of that time for counting! :rambo:

I'm just wondering what the general feeling about this is. I feel that it's sort of cheating.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ettiquette Question
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Once you've both passed, you can see the score. Once you've properly marked all the dead groups, it will show you the accurate score, but you have to click "Done" for the game to finish (that way it knows that all of the dead groups have been marked). Apparently some people are clicking undo once they see the final score, but before they click Done, which allows them to undo the pass and continue playing.


That is something that is well worth complaining to KGS about.

As for restarting the game after two passes, that is something that most rule sets allow. I like the idea of the Japanese rules. The player who does not restart is the one who plays first after the restart. :)
Author:  Numsgil [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
This disappears entirely once you hit low SDK. But it was pretty rampant among DDKs back when I was a DDK.
Author:  speedchase [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
I don't even remember this, except for one time. I think you'd be entitled to call an admin after the game
Author:  Tofu [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
Its not a big deal. Just kill the invasion. If you lose because of it, make it a learning experience and review how you could have done better.

It is poor etiquette, but it's not against the rules.
Author:  Ellyster [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
It's terrible etiquette violation to anyone's eyes.

It had never occurred to me something that rude... but as Tofu said, the only think that you can possibly do is to kill the invasion.

However... in order to avoid people go forward an overtime win, maybe the clock shouldn't tic again when you resume a game like that (unless both players agree in using the remaining time)... this way life and death conflicted opinions can be gently solved (they have actually finished the game in time, so overtime has no meaning here)... but if someone don't want to finish because they lose they will count as severe scapers.

This solution will avoid re-play to win by overtime (which in my opinion is unacceptable), but I there is no solution for a new desperate invasion... it's the lesser evil.
Author:  BigDoug [ Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Etiquette Question
Hello,

I've generally found that there are three reasons why people behave in this manner.

1. The person is just starting to play go and his or her self-esteem takes a hit whenever a game is lost. Generally people grow out of this behaviour pretty quickly and it's not unusual for people to apologise later for their behaviour. I often speak with the person in private later to explain the spirit of the game and why one game won or lost really doesn't matter. These discussions usually have a positive outcome.

2. The person wasn't given an undo earlier and is just trying to irritate the opponent into leaving. I believe this behaviour is against the spirit of the game and will usually take an active role in trying to resolve this situation.

3. It's an absolute time game and at least one of the players doesn't have much time left. Absolute time games very often result in hurt feelings and unhappy opponents and I generally don't get involved.
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