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How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
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Author:  Nagilum [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Yesterday i have lost a game on KGS. The game was a sure win for me, but my opponent forced a win without magic tesujis.
How?
The game was already clear. I killed a big group.
Now the magic: Scoring. Or with irony: How to score without to score... ;-)
My opponent just didn't agree with me in the score-mode. Furthermore he played pass-moves again and again.
It is possible to play another moves after you already score-mode. Useful when you have overlooked open borders. But i was in my last byo-yomi-period and after my opponent and i played some senseless pass-moves i finally lost because i was out of time.
By the way: My opponent closed the game with "thx". At least he/she was polite.

But we know that we can learn from loss, even from this one: Be patient, stay above...
Sure... All right.
Spontanous thought from yesterday:
THIS FUC**** SCORE-MODE suc**!!!
Such a thought would probably violate the board rules as an official statement, so let me just say that is rather annoying and i hope wms will think about that. All in all it looks like an error in the design of the scoring-mode.

@wms: You have a deadlock in your programm. :shock:
( But please, at first fix the sound issue. ;) )

In the meantime ... :scratch: i keep smiling...
Author:  Phelan [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
I know you're mostly venting, but this is already known.

You can report your opponent to the admins. While the mechanics of getting into score mode and out of it can be abused, they're not meant to be. If this happens, always report your opponent.
Author:  Codexus [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
You didn't lose that game, you won. That a cheater managed to get the system to record the wrong result does not change that.
Author:  Alguien [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Codexus wrote:
You didn't lose that game, you won. That a cheater managed to get the system to record the wrong result does not change that.


Exactly.

A wrong score by the system might mean, at most, that you sandbag a poor fellow who had nothing to do with it and go back to your rank.
Author:  Splatted [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
This is where KGSs other abusable feature comes in handy. If your opponent is refusing to mark dead stones properly you can just leave. Like everyone's said, you know the result and that's what matters.
Author:  FlameBlade [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Splatted wrote:
This is where KGSs other abusable feature comes in handy. If your opponent is refusing to mark dead stones properly you can just leave. Like everyone's said, you know the result and that's what matters.


KGS admin hat on: If there is any scoring abuse, tell an admin immediately, and we frown on any form of score-abusing or any refusal to finish the game. KGS admin hat off.
Author:  Tami [ Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
FlameBlade wrote:
and we frown on any form of score-abusing or any refusal to finish the game.


Um, but I thought that you guys don`t, in principle, force people to finish games?!
Author:  Mef [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Tami wrote:
FlameBlade wrote:
and we frown on any form of score-abusing or any refusal to finish the game.


Um, but I thought that you guys don`t, in principle, force people to finish games?!


If the game is finished (i.e. in the scoring phase), but the player is refusing to click done, they may be kicked to have them marked as an escaper (because essentially that's what they have done). Otherwise the player could indefinitely sit at the scoring phase with no clock running.
Author:  speedchase [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Mef wrote:
If the game is finished (i.e. in the scoring phase), but the player is refusing to click done, they may be kicked to have them marked as an escaper (because essentially that's what they have done). Otherwise the player could indefinitely sit at the scoring phase with no clock running.

I don't understand the distinction you are trying to create.
Author:  Tami [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
speedchase wrote:
I don't understand the distinction you are trying to create.


The distinction seems to be that if your opponent quits while 30 points behind and refuses to continue, then the game isn`t finished, and the admins won`t get involved, but if he won`t click done to accept a 0.5 loss then the game is finished and the player will be penalised.

Okay, I`m trying to see all sides of the argument. But as Robert pointed out, solving one problem does not mean that you cannot solve the others. There has to be a better method than what is currently being offered, and I say this from the perspective of somebody who is almost completely disinterested, as I get escaped upon no more than once a year.
Author:  Mef [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
speedchase wrote:
Mef wrote:
If the game is finished (i.e. in the scoring phase), but the player is refusing to click done, they may be kicked to have them marked as an escaper (because essentially that's what they have done). Otherwise the player could indefinitely sit at the scoring phase with no clock running.

I don't understand the distinction you are trying to create.


-If during play, a player no longer wishes continue the game and leaves -- so be it.

-If after two passes being made, a player decides they have missed a gainful play and wishes to continue, they may press undo and continue -- so be it.

-If at the end of a game, there is a reasonable dispute over the status of a group -- so be it.

-If after two passes have been made, a player no longer feels there is a gainful play, does not have a dispute over the status of a group, yet still does not wish to register the game as completed, and intends to sit around indefinitely no longer constrained by the time settings of the game that were agreed upon -- this is an abuse.

As such that player will be removed from the game so that they are marked as an escaper (their behavior being seen as equivalent to them leaving the game after passing).
Author:  speedchase [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
I understand the technical difference, but what I don't understand is why two passes suddenly makes wanting to leave unacceptable.
Author:  Mef [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
speedchase wrote:
I understand the technical difference, but what I don't understand is why two passes suddenly makes wanting to leave unacceptable.


Perhaps it wasn't clear -- wanting to leave is still perfectly acceptable, you are still free to leave....refusing to leave and at the same time refusing to end the game is the action that is unacceptable. At that point the decision to leave the game is made for you.
Author:  speedchase [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Now I don't understand what the difference is at all. unless it would cause one of the players to be marked as an escaper, who leaves doesn't matter at all, so if you leave, or wait for your opponent too, it doesn't make a difference.
Author:  Mef [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
speedchase wrote:
Now I don't understand what the difference is at all. unless it would cause one of the players to be marked as an escaper, who leaves doesn't matter at all, so if you leave, or wait for your opponent too, it doesn't make a difference.



This is precisely what it does. It marks the player who is refusing to finish the game as the escaper.
Author:  speedchase [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Mef wrote:
This is precisely what it does. It marks the player who is refusing to finish the game as the escaper.


But the KGS escaper policy allows people to leave the game without loosing, so it doesn't mark people as an escaper.
Author:  Mef [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
speedchase wrote:
Mef wrote:
This is precisely what it does. It marks the player who is refusing to finish the game as the escaper.


But the KGS escaper policy allows people to leave the game without loosing, so it doesn't mark people as an escaper.



The KGS escaper system marks the first person to leave any rated, timed, game. If a player has been flagged in >10% of their rated games (minimum of 3, maximum of 10), they begin to forfeit their earliest escaped games. If a player forfeits 10 games in this manner, all games they are the first to leave are immediately forfeited.

If you play frequently, this gives you some leeway for disconnections or games you need to otherwise resume, however it also prevents you abusing the same system to compromise the integrity of the rating system (since with 10% unfinished games, you would be able to raise a 50% winning rate to 55%, still much less than half a stone difference).
Author:  speedchase [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Mef wrote:
The KGS escaper system marks the first person to leave any rated, timed, game. If a player has been flagged in >10% of their rated games (minimum of 3, maximum of 10), they begin to forfeit their earliest escaped games. If a player forfeits 10 games in this manner, all games they are the first to leave are immediately forfeited.

If you play frequently, this gives you some leeway for disconnections or games you need to otherwise resume, however it also prevents you abusing the same system to compromise the integrity of the rating system (since with 10% unfinished games, you would be able to raise a 50% winning rate to 55%, still much less than half a stone difference).

I understand all of this, and I am saying it is not good enough to be a distinction worth noting.
Author:  Mef [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
speedchase wrote:
I understand all of this



My apologies then, I was simply trying to make sure it was clear given that both of these statements appeared to have a misunderstanding of how the system operates:

speedchase wrote:
so if you leave, or wait for your opponent too, it doesn't make a difference.

speedchase wrote:
so it doesn't mark people as an escaper.


It does make a difference, and the system does flag those who leave first, hence why FlameBlade mentioned if you have an opponent attempting to abuse the scoring phase of a game it is suggested you contact an admin.
Author:  daal [ Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to win a lost game on KGS ( Requirement: No moral )
Mef wrote:

-If after two passes have been made, a player no longer feels there is a gainful play, does not have a dispute over the status of a group, yet still does not wish to register the game as completed, and intends to sit around indefinitely no longer constrained by the time settings of the game that were agreed upon -- this is an abuse.

As such that player will be removed from the game so that they are marked as an escaper (their behavior being seen as equivalent to them leaving the game after passing).


Seems the punishment does not fit the crime. Why declare someone an escaper who refuses to leave? Wouldn't it make more sense just to push the "done" button for them and declare them the loser?
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