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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #21 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:52 pm 
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There's only one case where it's rude to play out a game.

You know you've lost, and you can tell your opponent thinks it's rude to play out a lost game.

The first part is easy, just ask yourself if you think you've lost. Maybe this will cause you to count the board. Counting is good. You should learn to count, anyway. You should have some idea of how accurate your counting is. If you're in byo-yomi, you may not have have time to count, so it's never rude to keep playing if your groups are alive.

The second part is harder. Some people give off body language that they are bored, some will just expect that you can read their minds. Some will make it very clear (HKA and DrStraw come to mind) their feelings on the subject.

Some people think "it's rude to play out a lost game" is a fact about the game and not a fact about their opinions. I recommend humoring these people if you choose to play them. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #22 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:42 pm 
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Martin1974 wrote:
On the other hand the stronger player also can't hint that I should resign because that also would be rude.

I don't think hinting at resigning is the same thing as asking to resign. I think its at least less rude (if there's such a thing).

As a weak player, I personally would not take offense if a stronger player asked me to resign, especially if he first pointed out why he felt I was behind (because I'm obviously not seeing it for myself).

But then again, I'm usually not that easily offended by a lot of things/people anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #23 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:58 pm 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
There's only one case where it's rude to play out a game.

You know you've lost, and you can tell your opponent thinks it's rude to play out a lost game.

The first part is easy, just ask yourself if you think you've lost.



I don't think this is so easy, because there isn't a binary true/false answer. I've played many games where I wanted to resign but persevered and won. There are games I've lost that I was dominating. I resign when I want to resign, and don't care what the opponent thinks. I'm not going to play pointless moves just to waste somebody's time, but if I think there's a reasonable chance at winning, even just 10%, I'll usually play.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #24 Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:07 am 
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Martin1974 wrote:
Never heard of rude knitting ...


Oh my... such a sheltered life.

:cool:


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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #25 Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:27 am 
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Yesterday my 30-points-behind opponent did not resign, managed to kill one of my corners when I was in byo-yomi, then berated me for not resigning! :salute:

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #26 Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:57 am 
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PaperTiger wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:
There's only one case where it's rude to play out a game.

You know you've lost, and you can tell your opponent thinks it's rude to play out a lost game.

The first part is easy, just ask yourself if you think you've lost.



I don't think this is so easy, because there isn't a binary true/false answer. ...


Yeah, it's not binary, so read the above "You're 95% sure you've lost, and you're 75% sure your opponent thinks it's rude to play out a lost game."

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #27 Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:21 pm 
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What I try to do:

1. Count
2. Never expect resignation as I still lose games due to late endgame fatigue and not seeing shortage of liberties.
3. Resign when I think even switching sides I could win against a pro.

Of course if I really believe 2) then 3) would in principle never be applied. Thus, never resign. But I do sometimes when I'm disgusted with my game.

For the OP's situation, that's probably a sandbagger, though I am very reluctant to accuse anyone of sandbagging as rating systems are all imperfect.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #28 Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Martin1974 wrote:
Never heard of rude knitting ...


Bah. Knitters are the worst. Haven't you heard of Stitch 'N Bitch?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #29 Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:11 am 
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Let's for a moment leave aside issues like being behind but the opponent in severe time trouble because that is a distraction from the real question here.

Focus on the presumed level of the players (~5 kyu)

Do we expect players at this level to be certain of the count? Do we expect them not to be making mistakes about large yose potentials or even life and death of groups? The two of those might be connected with a threat to the life or death of a group constituting a huge yose play; the group lives in gote but only by surrendering many yose points in sente. we should not expect 5 kyus to see these situations in advance of the small yose stage (missed that there was still a large yose play remaining).

In other words, left out of this question was an important "how close to the end of the game are we?". Is it clear that the life and death of all groups on the board is determined, there are no large yose plays left, and all that remains are little 1-2 pt plays? In my opinion 5 kyus shouldn't be resigning because 15 pts behind till this stage has been reached.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #30 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:51 am 
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I have recently apologised for the inconvenience, asked permission to play it out... then had my opponent kindly miss a forcing move, lose a big group and then, narrowly, the game.

I guess there is won and won.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #31 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:33 am 
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I think most players enjoy playing out a won game, if they aren't trying to squeeze a game into unusual time. I personally try to limit the number of games I play during a day, especially if I am in a losing rut, so sometimes I will continue to play as opposed to starting another game, which I feel might not be able to give a good game, just because I want to play go.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #32 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:03 am 
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SmoothOper wrote:
I think most players enjoy playing out a won game, if they aren't trying to squeeze a game into unusual time. I personally try to limit the number of games I play during a day, especially if I am in a losing rut, so sometimes I will continue to play as opposed to starting another game, which I feel might not be able to give a good game, just because I want to play go.


If I may make an example with golf, when you play casual rounds and get the ball relatively close to the hole, a lot of people will tell you that your putt is a 'gimme', meaning that you can count it as good without having to actually make it. Originally, this was used for putts that were 'inside the leather', meaning closer to the hole than the length of the leather grip on the putter (maybe 9-10"), as they are quite difficult to miss. Nowadays, though, you will find players who will give or take gimmes from 3+ feet away, a much less likely putt, and often the reason is that they don't have a lot of practice finishing those short but not too short putts, and are worried about having to make them and missing.

I suspect in go, at a certain level, players can play themselves into a won position but aren't fully confident that they won't screw up the win, and this is where some of the pressure to resign comes from. At a professional level, mistakes are few and far between, and so resigning makes sense, but if you lost a group early as a 10k player and your opponent is trying to insist that you resign, who's to say they won't lose the same later? Besides, strength shows in the endgame :).


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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #33 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:53 am 
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Martin1974 wrote:
So I'm off to another hobby, knitting maybe. Never heard of rude knitting ...


Gee, rude knitting doesn't take that much imagination. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #34 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:20 am 
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I think it's a bit rude if you're aware of the count nearing endgame. I don't have much respect for a player who is hoping for a 10% chance to win based on time pressure or psychological lapses(boredom) from your opponent in a casual club game or online game.

The fun part of Go for me isn't winning or losing, it's making a nice game where both players are going all-out and then reviewing and learning from it afterwards. Unless you're in a tournament environment (or practicing for tournaments), I feel like it's insulting if you either make ridiculous overplays in yose or play passive with your lead.

I'm sure that I'm a small minority. At least it doesn't bother me all that much because I just imagine my opponents are practicing for a tournament or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #35 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:29 am 
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I used to think it was rude to play out a loss you were aware of, but now I don't think so. Because I typically resign when I feel i have no chance, I rarely get to practice endgame.

If there's still something to be learned from the game, keep playing.

Also, part of go strength is maintaining a win, and conversely, coming back from a loss.

By continuing to play, you can increase these areas of strength in your game.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #36 Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
I used to think it was rude to play out a loss you were aware of, but now I don't think so. Because I typically resign when I feel i have no chance, I rarely get to practice endgame.
I suspect that this is a confusion. As you get better, what counts as a close game becomes tighter: for me a 5 point game is rather close, but it's not so close for evenly matched professionals. Part of this is that your endgame gets more accurate: at my level, a 5 point lead is only solid relatively late. By the same token, the amount you can expect to gain or lose in endgame shrinks. So what you're practicing is about smaller and smaller differences: by resigning games with larger margins, you're not losing the chance to practice what matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #37 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:10 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I used to think it was rude to play out a loss you were aware of, but now I don't think so. Because I typically resign when I feel i have no chance, I rarely get to practice endgame.
I suspect that this is a confusion. As you get better, what counts as a close game becomes tighter: for me a 5 point game is rather close, but it's not so close for evenly matched professionals. Part of this is that your endgame gets more accurate: at my level, a 5 point lead is only solid relatively late. By the same token, the amount you can expect to gain or lose in endgame shrinks. So what you're practicing is about smaller and smaller differences: by resigning games with larger margins, you're not losing the chance to practice what matters.


Middle game is more likely to decide the winner - I agree.

The point is, if one of the two players always resigns when they realize they are behind, endgame is rarely played. It is nice to be able to practice the endgame, even when you will still lose, because you can increase this strength. Also, it's not just about endgame. I have been finding turnarounds happening in late middle game. I think this is a strength that someone can grow. If I always resigned before getting to this point, I'd never grow this ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #38 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:47 am 
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Kirby wrote:
The point is, if one of the two players always resigns when they realize they are behind, endgame is rarely played.
My point of view is that if you can count that accurately, it means you know how the endgame will go, and you don't need to practice it.

You can always go home and play the endgame out as a problem. If your opponent is winning by 15 points, there's no reason for them to push you in the endgame, they may just play it safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #39 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:15 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
My point of view is that if you can count that accurately, it means you know how the endgame will go, and you don't need to practice it.

You can always go home and play the endgame out as a problem. If your opponent is winning by 15 points, there's no reason for them to push you in the endgame, they may just play it safe.


Trust me, in my case, I think I need to practice endgame, more :-)

Since I'm already playing a game and under time pressure, it seems like a good opportunity to do so. Of course, as with all aspects of the game, I can continue to review it later. Also, there's a difference in being able to tell that you won't be able to win, and playing optimal sequence of endgame moves. So even if you're skilled enough to tell that you don't have enough to make things up in endgame, it is still a challenge to play optimally.

My changed viewpoint on this comes from the idea that the purpose of the game is not about winning - it's about learning. So if I treat the game as a way to learn something new, there can be things to be learned from playing the endgame, even if the result happens to be a loss for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it rude to play out a ~15 pts loss (at 5k)?
Post #40 Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
My changed viewpoint on this comes from the idea that the purpose of the game is not about winning - it's about learning. So if I treat the game as a way to learn something new, there can be things to be learned from playing the endgame, even if the result happens to be a loss for me.


I think the problem is - if your opponent leads by more than 15 points in the endgame - he would rather avoid any risks and play only the second-best sequences, even if that gives away a few points. Thus, the learning effect is not as high as in close endgames.

I am now trying harder to count during playing, which at least starts to work for me in slow games (tournament games etc.). Besides a better judgement of the score it's also a good opportunity to calm down and look at the game from another perspective. I also try practising to count while watching high dan games played online. In fast games, I am still somewhat unsure about the result especially if there is heavy fighting going on.

BTW it's funny that this thread has been reanimated after a couple of months... ;-)

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