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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #601 Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Not for players:
I have a niggling feeling about Joaz's sequence.

Edit: Oh yeah, for everyone who doesn't have the exact same reading patterns and abilities as me, Joaz seems to assume black will not ignite the obvious high value ko, which, though it looks pokey for black I don't see a satisfactory resolution to for white (black has a few local threats to live through killing the north north west group, and white has his hands tied for many moves bar large threats). Presumably Violence and Shapenaji both have an idea of how this "should" go, so I'm surious to see how and why they play or avoid this.

Also, it's entirely possible the ko I'm seeing is wholly imaginary, I'm going to go look again, might add a diagram in a few minutes.

Edit edit: It seems real, I am relatively confident shapenaji will change Joaz's move (to what I don't know). Unless some sort of ko-y trade is satisfactory considering white's power dominates the rest of the board. Diagram still to come.

Edit edit edit: Right, Joaz' 4 at 6 W seems unconditionally alive (very probably) and black seems to have to live in gote. Final memo!

Post-final edit edit edit edit: I think black can tenuki after white lives and achieve seki (given 4 at 6))(bar my obvious mistakes), which may not be satisfactory. Watch none of this be true! (This edit was wrong, I mistakenly thought black N19 was sente in my last diagram, which it is not. Relatedly, I just editted in a jamboree of diagrams in my next hidden section.)


Why am I handmaking diagrams I should download drago
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm136 Joaz' 136
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 1 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . 2 X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O C . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Idle speculation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 7 O 6 . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . 1 . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O 9 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X W B 3 O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 2 O O 4 X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |[/go]

5@ :wc:
8@ :bc:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Idle speculation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 3 O O X . e t c X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O 2 O X . . 6 O 5 O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X W B O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |[/go]

11@ :wc:
14@ :bc:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 With Joaz' 4 at his 6. NB Some variation possible, black must also live in gote.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 5 O 4 y b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X m a e 2 . O X 3 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X k e s X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X i X X O X 1 O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |[/go]

Might actually be my final edit: Note i is sente against life. Oh, N19 wasn't sente for black. Removing that. I guess they must live in gote. I guess good for W.
Well that was onerous but maybe you get the idea



For Violence:
You gotta let us know how this ends, it is too much reading for me to be confident at all. Or I could just watch the show, I guess.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #602 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:59 am 
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Approved.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #603 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:06 am 
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@Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . X X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 3 . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 4 X X . X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A ko? Does this not work?
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #604 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:39 am 
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topazg wrote:
@Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . X X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 3 . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 4 X X . X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A ko? Does this not work?

Topaz:
It does not, black will connect with 3 and then j14 is a double threat.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #605 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:52 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
It does not, black will connect with 3 and then j14 is a double threat.


Yes, you're quite right. I just wondered why Joaz chose the 4 he did. I was wondering if there was a liberty issue with White's top group that I'd missed that was behind his choice of a ko.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #606 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:46 am 
Judan
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topazg wrote:
@Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . X X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 3 . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 4 X X . X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A ko? Does this not work?


You're right. It looks like I showed an inferior line for black. Nonetheless, it still ends up a ko, I think:

[hide]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . X X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 5 . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 3 X X 6 X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O 4 O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #607 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:11 am 
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Loons:
We get to live unconditionally in gote. From my reading, if they try to make any kinds of kos, it will not be beneficial for them, and anyways, they get the first move in the lower right/bottom.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #608 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Just to make sure that everybody is on the same page: TTBOMK, this is the current position, Shapenaji has approved for white, and it is black's move. Gresil?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm134 Move 134 W65 B60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 3 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X O . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 2 |
$$ | . O O O C . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


BTW, while I'm clarifying things - does anyone have an accurate prisoner count?

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #609 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:54 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:

BTW, while I'm clarifying things - does anyone have an accurate prisoner count?


The prisoner count as it stands is, I think, only composed of the prisoners we traded. (Unless you guys have been adding prisoners from captured stones)

If everyone is amenable, I say we only use that one for prisoner trades, and just count the board chinese. Then use the prisoner difference as komi. It's really hard to track lots of captures each move, I feel chinese will be easier...

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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #610 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:42 am 
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Quote:
BTW, while I'm clarifying things - does anyone have an accurate prisoner count?

Yes, I do, and your count is WRONG as noted in this post. Everyone liked it but no one actually changed anything :batman:

Black has one real prisoner and 60 due to changes made by white and white also has one real one and 64 due to changes. Totalling up to B: 65 and W: 61. And your movenumber is also still wrong


Code:
$$Bcm141 Move 141 W65 B61

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Offline SpongeBob
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #611 Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:26 am 
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Oh, by the way, Mnemonic, do you have a ZIP archive of the beginning of the game which started on GD, by any chance?

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #612 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Um, we gonna continue this one? we're in danger of going abandoned here...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #613 Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Back on Feb 20th,
Gresil wrote:
I'm sorry about my slow play and shallow thought—I've been very busy at work, and starting tomorrow I'll be twice as busy and stressed for the next month or so...


I'm assuming that we were waiting on Gresil to get back from his busy period. We could play at least one move without him, since the next is a no-brainer.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #614 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:20 pm 
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Well... it's been over a month now, hasn't it? what'll become of this game?
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #615 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:57 pm 
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I've been wondering that myself. It is Gresil's move.

Back on Feb 20th...
Gresil wrote:
I'm sorry about my slow play and shallow thought—I've been very busy at work, and starting tomorrow I'll be twice as busy and stressed for the next month or so....


The last time he visited these forums was Feb 24th. It has been a month and 12 days. PMs obviously won't work. Anybody know how to get in touch with him by other means?

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #616 Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:51 pm 
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If we can't get ahold of him, should we find a (at least temporary) replacement?
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #617 Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Violence wrote:
If we can't get ahold of him, should we find a (at least temporary) replacement?

I would hate to see this game die at such a climactic moment, so I would be willing to sub in for Gresil if you can't find anyone else. As a warning, I have been following the game; since nothing has happened in months, I probably do not have access to any secret information about what is going on, but I have a vague memory of the variations that were being considered for the top.
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #618 Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:31 pm 
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great,jts. I wanted to volunteer also but I considered myself as to weak compared to Gresil. I tried to find the next move, but then I understood Gresil's running away. Good luck!
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #619 Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Fine by me.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #620 Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Jts would be fine by me. ( I don't think that we need worry much about what he may have read. The game enters a whole new phase in a few moves, and I would be amazed if anyone has posted substantial analysis of that. )

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