[go]$$Bc 47A: W 24, B 17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
End of the promised sequence. I'm going to try to start looking at options of what's next, but this move is pretty well forced so I'll go ahead and post it.
_________________ Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
Posts: 505 Location: Montana Liked others: 80 Was liked: 62
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
(snip)
BTW, for sequences like this, was a trigger possible?
I think the work behind a trigger would be a little excessive. You would not want to do too many, since you would need approvals for every move along the way. I guess it could work for simple exchanges, but I don't see it saving all that much time just because of the big brother approval process.
Or are you thinking more of the big brothers giving approval for the entire trigger? Again, though, if any big brother along the way didn't approve of one step, the whole thing would need to be redone anyway. I go back to my original statement.
[go]$$Bc 48A: W 24, B 17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Am I crazy, or is 'a' above double-sente?
_________________ We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are. Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness. We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before, No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
[go]$$Bc 48A: W 24, B 19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . C . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Younger brother's intention is good: we have to have an eye down there. But it is gote. We have a weak group in the middle and black can hane with . We have to run with an ugly . Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with , and it looks like this:
[go]$$Bc Diagram 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Each team has one running group, but black is getting territory in the upper right. This is not good for us.
Let's try to find a better way.
But first, a little tangent for beginners. =========================================================================
You may have noted that in the above diagram I did not include a move at H18 by black. It seems good at first because it seals white in with sente. But then the cut at I16 works for white. Once white gets enough liberties in the center, black has to come back and protect in gote, or this happens:
As I wrote earlier, younger brother has the correct goal. We have to get an eye for our upper group. And his reflex to play F19 is good, for F18 is the guaranteed eye, regardless of how hard white attacks.
But there are better ways. If we look at how white attacks the eye, it is with the threat of G19.
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . O B X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If G19 is the eye-killing move, then the way to save the group is to control G19 ourselves. Once we recognize this refined goal, it is easy to spot two other moves that control G19.
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I like the second option better because it encroaches more on black's potential territory to the right of the wall, and it cuts down on black's liberties.
Black now has two options: to reply which ends in gote, or to ignore it and tenuki.
Posts: 1590 Liked others: 886 Was liked: 528
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Younger brother's intention is good: we have to have an eye down there. But it is gote. We have a weak group in the middle and black can hane with . We have to run with an ugly . Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with , and it looks like this:
[go]$$Bc Diagram 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Huh, after my first instinct would be to leave those three white stones as aji and take a big point elsewhere. looks super-slow and heavy. I guess that is Joaz's point (that having to play means this variation is bad for White), but my question is whether it's really necessary to play here. Are those stones too important to let die because they split Black?
Younger brother's intention is good: we have to have an eye down there. But it is gote. We have a weak group in the middle and black can hane with . We have to run with an ugly . Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with , and it looks like this:
[go]$$Bc Diagram 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Huh, after my first instinct would be to leave those three white stones as aji and take a big point elsewhere. looks super-slow and heavy. I guess that is Joaz's point (that having to play means this variation is bad for White), but my question is whether it's really necessary to play here. Are those stones too important to let die because they split Black?
The 3 stones are cutting stones arent they ? I think that makes them worth rescuing ^_^
Posts: 505 Location: Montana Liked others: 80 Was liked: 62
Jonas wrote:
dfan wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Younger brother's intention is good: we have to have an eye down there. But it is gote. We have a weak group in the middle and black can hane with . We have to run with an ugly . Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with , and it looks like this:
[go]$$Bc Diagram 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X O X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O X . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Huh, after my first instinct would be to leave those three white stones as aji and take a big point elsewhere. looks super-slow and heavy. I guess that is Joaz's point (that having to play means this variation is bad for White), but my question is whether it's really necessary to play here. Are those stones too important to let die because they split Black?
The 3 stones are cutting stones arent they ? I think that makes them worth rescuing ^_^
Treating those 3 stones as cutting stone are consistent with what shapenaji wants them for (how he likes this position currently), and it now looks like Joaz is coming around to that line of thinking as well. They seem the best use for them especially with the current board position.
Also, I might be just an ~8k, but that feels really bad losing those three stones and allowing black to get all of that.
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topazg
. We have to run with an ugly 
. Black secures a path outward for his endangered group with 
, and it looks like this: