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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #681 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:47 pm 
Judan
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BTW, if it makes sense for me to let a move slide rather than give up two points, it is doubly true for Shapenaji, for it costs us four points if he corrects.
I trust younger brotherto see the light real soon.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #682 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Approved.
as Joaz said, not worth changing

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #683 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:29 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm142 Move 143 W68 B62
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X B C X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Rightttttttttttt.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm143 Move 143 W68 B62
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 9 . 2 X 1 3 X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 5 6 O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 4 X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X 7 X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O 8 X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O 0 X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I still suspect these would be better used as ko threats... but I am now a little bit worried, since I'm now reading that we only just win the semeai. Can they start a ko with C19? If so, we're in deep trouble. It may make sense to respond to E19 with J16.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #684 Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:21 am 
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Approved.

ShapeNaji didn't think it was worth 4 points to fix this?

We win the race every way I read it. I don't see why squeezing us now would be worth more than the ko threats they're losing.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #685 Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #686 Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:04 pm 
Judan
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Count liberties...please, god, make him count liberties...

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #687 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:44 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm142 Move 143 W68 B62
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . W O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The proper point is either here or one above, I think, and I like this more. Falsifying eyes for fun... and profit? This prevents an eye above or below, keeping it a liberty race between b's big group here and the group we have to the left. We do not have a ton of liberties...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #688 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:17 am 
Judan
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I don't approve.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm142 Move 143 W68 B64
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . C O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In its simplest form, the libertes race looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 9 5 X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 W O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 3 X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X 7 X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O 8 O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O 4 X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O 6 X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

They can tenuki to the big play at 1 at the bottom, and then still come back and win the liberties race. ( There are more complicated variations, but those don't work either. )

Although, in Chew's defense, the dual approvals last move can be misleading.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #689 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:45 am 
Tengen
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for obs only:
in my opinion it is sente. there was no need to correct that move..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm143 :b50: = :w45:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 6 . 1 X X 2 X 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 4 W O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 3 X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X 0 X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O 7 O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O 9 X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #690 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:59 am 
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Not Approved
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm142 Move 143 W68 B65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . W . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz is right that the top just wastes threats, but his move on the bottom isn't ambitious enough imo... If we want to use those threats, we have to stretch further

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #691 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:48 pm 
Judan
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Huh? Strike...then make fist? :scratch:

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #692 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Force, then consolidate

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This post by shapenaji was liked by: gaius
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #693 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:05 am 
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F7

I tried to read out tactical alternatives to the obvious response, and strategic alternatives to staying connected. Even with D6, they are able to cut us off from the corner, so if we want our groups to stay solidly connected back to a living group, this is very important. If we allow a cut, then we may run into liberty problems with the 10 o'clock center group, and may be forced to make life under disadvantageous conditions in the lower left. The key problem with playing this way is that W can choke off our access to the center. But if W cuts of our center stone, we can then seek compensation in both corners, and may still end up able to make a small living group on the bottom (because it will still be essentially empty). If my previous estimate was correct, W needs to make a huge amount of net territory on the bottom half of the board to win: "large" won't cut it.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #694 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:21 am 
Gosei
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Approved.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #695 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Approved.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #696 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:49 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 143 W68 B65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . W , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My first instinct was something more 'normal', like J4, but I kind of liked the idea of F5. It threatens to make a big wall on one side, or cut and maybe kill on the other. However, I decided that it probably couldn't kill on the left, so it failed. I'm going with the safer move.

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #697 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:43 pm 
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My move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 143 W68 B65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . W . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #698 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:25 pm 
Judan
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I approve.

I assumed that our general strategy was to take make our two stones into a stable group and take quick teritory on the side. Then any invasion of the side could not manage a two-space extension. So I wanted to play low.
But Shapenaji is suggesting a more central fighting strategy, so a high move seems reasonable.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #699 Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:14 am 
Judan
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Bump.

Shapenaji?

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #700 Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Sorry, got busy there for a second.

Approved.
I'd like to move this one, but it's not worth the 4 points to move it to H5

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