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 Post subject: undo ?
Post #1 Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:03 am 
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i couldn't find the "undo" function.
i do misclick even with the virtual stone feature.

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Post #2 Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:12 pm 
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I don't think there is an undo function.

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 Post subject: Re: undo ?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:55 am 
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nmtears wrote:
i couldn't find the "undo" function.
i do misclick even with the virtual stone feature.



Not having a undo is great feature. By and large once you place something on board it is there. Not being to put where you want is part of your skill. I really wish I could have KGS flag that would block the undo button altogether in games

Petri

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Post #4 Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:01 pm 
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petri wrote:
Not being to put where you want is part of your skill.

I'm not really sure what this sentence means, but it sounds like you are saying that not being able to put the stone where you want is part of the game, which it is NOT.

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Post #5 Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:36 pm 
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speedchase wrote:
petri wrote:
Not being to put where you want is part of your skill.

I'm not really sure what this sentence means, but it sounds like you are saying that not being able to put the stone where you want is part of the game, which it is NOT.


I don't know... I have certainly lost games in tournaments because I placed a stone an intersection away from where I meant to.

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 Post subject: Re: undo ?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:44 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
speedchase wrote:
petri wrote:
Not being to put where you want is part of your skill.

I'm not really sure what this sentence means, but it sounds like you are saying that not being able to put the stone where you want is part of the game, which it is NOT.


I don't know... I have certainly lost games in tournaments because I placed a stone an intersection away from where I meant to.


I have lost games because of being drunk... or of toothache... or whatever.
What does it mean? Shall we strive to emphasize such factors as 'part of the game' or rather minimize them as something that prevents us to play?

I am putting small screens and over-sensitive mice in the same category.

Having said the above, most of my misclicks have been rather interesting, and I don't think I ever asked to take them back...

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 Post subject: Re: undo ?
Post #7 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:57 am 
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Bantari wrote:
skydyr wrote:
speedchase wrote:
I'm not really sure what this sentence means, but it sounds like you are saying that not being able to put the stone where you want is part of the game, which it is NOT.


I don't know... I have certainly lost games in tournaments because I placed a stone an intersection away from where I meant to.


I have lost games because of being drunk... or of toothache... or whatever.
What does it mean? Shall we strive to emphasize such factors as 'part of the game' or rather minimize them as something that prevents us to play?



It is your problem to minimize those factors: Not your opponent's . If you lose being drunk you still lose. You lose on putting stone on wrong place, you still lose. Over the board once you let go of stone it is there. And in server once you click the intersection it is there. I sometimes do accept undo. But usually not, lets say it is a stone on 1st row in the opening sure, but anything short of that: probably not.


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Post #8 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:55 am 
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In theory petri is right. Your concentration, your time, and even your physical health are all part of how good you play and all people in competitive environments learn to manage all these aspects on top of the actual skill (go pros, sport professionals, students for highly competitive exams).

In an informal game, however, it is no rare occurence in my club that one of the players will undo himself the blunder of the other one just because that's more fun than to end the game there.

Because go is a game, and that's what it's suppose to be: fun. Personally I always let people undo their move as long as they ask right away.
In a tournament, obviously, it's different.


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Post #9 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:55 am 
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If I accidentally drop the stone I'm trying to place, I pick it back up and put it where I meant it. If I (obviously) misclick, I'd hope for the same consideration.


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Post #10 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:32 am 
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Amelia wrote:
In theory petri is right

No he isn't. In a real game, a stone should not fly out of my bowl, and land on the board, and count as my move, at essentially complete random. If part of the game is to catch the flying stones in the air, is this really go?

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Post #11 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:32 am 
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petri wrote:
Bantari wrote:
I have lost games because of being drunk... or of toothache... or whatever.
What does it mean? Shall we strive to emphasize such factors as 'part of the game' or rather minimize them as something that prevents us to play?



It is your problem to minimize those factors: Not your opponent's . If you lose being drunk you still lose. You lose on putting stone on wrong place, you still lose. Over the board once you let go of stone it is there. And in server once you click the intersection it is there. I sometimes do accept undo. But usually not, lets say it is a stone on 1st row in the opening sure, but anything short of that: probably not.


It is also the problem of platform designers to try to minimize them. For example: A Go server which streams loud distracting music would not be good. People even ask to disable/hide chat/kibitz feature because it is distracting. People certainly ask about mouse anti-slip functionality, and so on. And these are not unreasonable demands.

Ultimately - we all want to have a good game, yes? And part of that is trying to provide conditions conducive to such game. This applies to both players and the platform, I think, not just me. So, while nobody can force you to agree to taking back an obvious misclick, I personally think that in some cases this should be allowed and certainly such option should exist.

Of course, if we care more about the ultimate result of win or loss without any care about how we got there - sure, I can see your point.

PS>
I actually have had people asking me to postpone/cancel the game when they realized I was playing drunk or was sick or whatever. Why? Because they cared about good game more than about easy win. And I really respected that, even when I would rather have kept playing. I am not sure how I feel about people going 'he misclicked, hahaha, now i have easy win, yeah baby! sucker!!!' Actually, I do know I how feel about that, but I am reluctant to voice it here.

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 Post subject: Re: undo ?
Post #12 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:44 am 
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speedchase wrote:
Amelia wrote:
In theory petri is right

No he isn't. In a real game, a stone should not fly out of my bowl, and land on the board, and count as my move, at essentially complete random. If part of the game is to catch the flying stones in the air, is this really go?

The rules of go forbid undo, and they do it for a reason. They were not made for computers, true, but the reasons for forbidding undo do not disappear when playing on a computer. Which is why undo in any case should remain exceptional.

Usually I let people undo their move if they ask, and I do think this kind of feature has its use, but I don't miss it if it isn't there. Misclicks are pretty rare anyway, and are only one of many stupid reasons for losing a game on the internet, among hungry four years old, ringing phones and a lagging internet connection. There's no need to whine about it.

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 Post subject: Re: undo ?
Post #13 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:52 am 
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Amelia wrote:
The rules of go forbid undo, and they do it for a reason. They were not made for computers, true, but the reasons for forbidding undo do not disappear when playing on a computer. Which is why undo in any case should remain exceptional.

The rules of go forbid playing on a computer all together. You need a board and stones to play go, not just pixels. The purpose of playing on the computer is to play a game as close to go as possible, except over the internet. The game we play over the internet is most similar to go when we don't punish misclicks, but don't allow undo's for other mistakes.

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 Post subject: Re: undo ?
Post #14 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Amelia wrote:
The rules of go forbid undo, and they do it for a reason.


In the rules of go a move is a stone I place on the board in a legal position. If I knocked two stones out of my bowl somehow and they landed on the board they would not end the game, whereas if I placed two stones on the board it would (illegal move, forfeit the game etc).

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Post #15 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:23 pm 
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Quote:
If I knocked two stones out of my bowl somehow and they landed on the board they would not end the game


Yeah but it's easier to make that difference sitting in front of a real board face to face, than when there is a computer interface in the middle. What I was pointing at is that it's possible to cheat using the undo function. It may or may not be clear from context whether someone who asks for undo misclicked or changed his mind after seeing his move on the board. So I understand why some servers don't implement it and some players don't like it.

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Post #16 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:52 pm 
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Amelia wrote:
Quote:
If I knocked two stones out of my bowl somehow and they landed on the board they would not end the game


Yeah but it's easier to make that difference sitting in front of a real board face to face, than when there is a computer interface in the middle. What I was pointing at is that it's possible to cheat using the undo function. It may or may not be clear from context whether someone who asks for undo misclicked or changed his mind after seeing his move on the board. So I understand why some servers don't implement it and some players don't like it.


I agree completely but there are moves which can only be misclicks where there is little ambiguity which is what I think people get upset about. You'll often see "No Undos except obvious misclicks" up on KGS custom games, most people have no problem with undo in that context. You can't really use undo as implemented on KGS to cheat, I don't have to grant you an undo if I don't want to and it'll be your clock ticking down after I move not mine. You can harass a player over it but for instance on a server where there is no undo a custom might arise where if I make an obvious misclick you make an equally bad move and we get back to the game. One could easily imagine certain kinds of players harassing someone to do this where they'd made a bad read and tenuki'd or whatever.


I suppose, when I play someone at a certain handicap or even I want to play at that handicap or even, if someone made a gross misclick in the fuseki that put them at a serious disadvantage I'd be the one asking for them to undo it. I don't want to play a game and gain an advantage due to some technical glitch or bad luck on my opponent's side. Similar to how in a tournament I played last year my hands started shaking very badly due to the Lithium and I was having trouble placing a stone without disturbing the stones on the board, my opponent offered to freeze the clocks for a couple of minutes to give me a chance to recover. I've no idea if it would have been legal to do it, I refused anyway because it doesn't tend to stay that bad that long, so it wasn't an issue.

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Post #17 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:29 am 
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It is a bit ironic that the server doesn't implement undo, but enables score estimation and offline pre-play by default.


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 Post subject: Re: undo ?
Post #18 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:51 am 
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snorri wrote:
It is a bit ironic that the server doesn't implement undo, but enables score estimation and offline pre-play by default.


Probably they have nothig against undo in principle. Just did not get implemented. Yes, pre-thingy is stupid

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Post #19 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:40 am 
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speedchase wrote:
Amelia wrote:
The rules of go forbid undo, and they do it for a reason. They were not made for computers, true, but the reasons for forbidding undo do not disappear when playing on a computer. Which is why undo in any case should remain exceptional.

The rules of go forbid playing on a computer all together. You need a board and stones to play go, not just pixels. The purpose of playing on the computer is to play a game as close to go as possible, except over the internet. The game we play over the internet is most similar to go when we don't punish misclicks, but don't allow undo's for other mistakes.



Actually Tromp-Taylor rules only require a grid that can be colored! AGA is pretty close to that (it requires a grid and tokens).

Boidhre wrote:
In the rules of go a move is a stone I place on the board in a legal position. If I knocked two stones out of my bowl somehow and they landed on the board they would not end the game, whereas if I placed two stones on the board it would (illegal move, forfeit the game etc).


Similarly, is dropping a stone on the board while attempt to make a move making a play, or is it "disrupting the board position"? If you consider it the latter, it is perfectly acceptable to restore the game to its previous state (making an undo).

Even then I think it's perfectly fine for go servers to acknowledge the differences that exist between online and offline play. I would find it quite odd if my opponent forfeited for accidentally clicking on the board during my turn.

Amusingly, I think one way to avoid this completely (that I'm sure many people would hate, but hey that's how it goes) would be to replicate a real life "feature" that is typically left out in online play: Punching a clock (or at least pressing a confirm button). Anyone can sympathize with misclicking, but both misclicking and still punching the clock is much harder to forgive.

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 Post subject: Re: undo ?
Post #20 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:08 pm 
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snorri wrote:
It is a bit ironic that the server doesn't implement undo, but enables score estimation and offline pre-play by default.

Indeed that's weird :-?

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