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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #221 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:03 am 
Judan
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Kirby wrote:
Should probably seal them in with E14 or E15, but I haven't read anything deeply, yet.


Joaz Banbeck wrote:
That was my initial reaction too. But I did have some time to read a bit.
My current favorite is F14...


Kirby wrote:
I'm a little uneasy about this variation with F14:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or were you thinking of some variation ignoring the peep?


Yes, I was. :)

It seems rather anti-positional to do so, but white ends up a bit over extended if they try to take advantage of it.:

The natural line goes like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 6 7 . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 5 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we could play 'a', we are looking pretty good...but it is white's move. If they cut, and play the natural extension:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then we have the tempo-stealing play at E16:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 X O X . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 O O X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Where 6 nets and kills.

So they probably play :w3: like this:
But again, E16 is a problem.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 7 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 6 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 8 X O X 3 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So :w7: cannot run:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 9 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 6 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 7 X O X 3 O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And there are so many branches that I have ignored that it is purely speculation at this point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 X O O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But it looks like it might work for us.

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Offline TegaiS
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #222 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:46 am 
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@Black
Let's play E14. White can't cut at F15 bacause the ladder works for us. If White tries to cut at E15 we can answer at F14 and go for the variations Joaz suggested. Or we can answer at F15.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #223 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:20 am 
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TegaiS wrote:
@Black
Let's play E14. White can't cut at F15 bacause the ladder works for us. If White tries to cut at E15 we can answer at F14 and go for the variations Joaz suggested. Or we can answer at F15.


@black:
Sounds ok to me.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #224 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:57 am 
Judan
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@Black
TegaiS wrote:
Let's play E14. White can't cut at F15 because the ladder works for us. If White tries to cut at E15 we can answer at F14 and go for the variations Joaz suggested. Or we can answer at F15.


Kirby wrote:
Sounds ok to me.


Whoa!!! Not so fast. One mis-read here could cost us the game.

I suspect that E14 will do, but I'm not so sure. On my previous post, I showed six diagrams, but still concluded that it was speculative.

Have you guys read this out so that you are sure of it?

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #225 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:27 am 
Judan
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@BLACK:
Also, how about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't find a continuation that is clearly good for white.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #226 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:24 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
@Black
TegaiS wrote:
Let's play E14. White can't cut at F15 because the ladder works for us. If White tries to cut at E15 we can answer at F14 and go for the variations Joaz suggested. Or we can answer at F15.


Kirby wrote:
Sounds ok to me.


Whoa!!! Not so fast. One mis-read here could cost us the game.

I suspect that E14 will do, but I'm not so sure. On my previous post, I showed six diagrams, but still concluded that it was speculative.

Have you guys read this out so that you are sure of it?


@black:
I'm not sure of anything.

That being said, I don't see a problem with E14.

I like it better than D15, because our shape isn't very good after white's cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . B 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's not a 6-diagram post, but my feeling is that E14 is better.

If there's something in particular with E14 that you don't like, let's discuss it.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #227 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:59 pm 
Judan
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@BLACK:
OK, you guys sound pretty sure. I'll defer to your judgement.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #228 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:00 pm 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



@white: a trigger to look at after you have chosen your move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And if you have chosen that move, then the following is a trigger for your next move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 0 B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #229 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:33 pm 
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@white
E15 to follow up with a cut?
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Offline Schachus
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #230 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:00 pm 
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KGS: Schachus12
Observers:
If I were on the black team, I would be unhappy with Joaz' trigger. From what they discussed, it seems to me, that the idea of Playing E14 was to keep the choice, how to answer e15 for one more move. It didnt seem like they already agreed to play f14(which seems strange to me, by the way)
Edit: Also I'm not sure why white should go for the one stone with the cut at g16(as in Joaz' line). Following the strategy emphasized by the 3-3 it seemed logical to me to go for the bigger bit with g14. Giving up both upper stones seems big, the choice for black after a cut at g14 seems to be either atari at h14 followed by connect (probably at h16), which does look very dangerous at the right after say e12(safer option is f11 but leaves more space), possibly after a white peep at the top, or trying to play on the right attacking the d10 while temporarily giving up the top intending to use some aji of the two stones there later, though the top looks big. Probably my choice would be the latter, but I wouldnt be so happy as black.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #231 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:36 pm 
Gosei
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E15 looks like the only move to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Cutting the other way doesn't work because of the ladder

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 0 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 8 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline andreyl
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #232 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:16 am 
Dies in gote

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I agree,lets continue with E15
@white
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #233 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:46 am 
Oza

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, following the trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@white
Push through to cut... only move I think? When they block, where do you all want to cut? G14 feels right to me.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #234 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:20 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
@black:
Looking at the diagram, I'm not 100% sure that drawing back is the best move. This might have also been an option:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I guess this is what we agreed on.

Anyway, let's see what they do.

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #235 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:21 am 
Gosei
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White:
I agree, pushing through is the only move.
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Offline andreyl
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #236 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:28 am 
Dies in gote

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white
Push and cut @ g16
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #237 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:21 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #238 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:25 pm 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
@black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 0 B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked move, above, seems reasonable to me.

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #239 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:44 pm 
Oza

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So following the second trigger, we're here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@white
Why G16 instead of G14? I don't like that black can then atari and link up, sealing white in without an outside cut in exchange for a smallish sacrifice. I think we need to keep black split into two groups to come out of this successfully.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Post #240 Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:01 pm 
Judan
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@black:
Kirby wrote:
...But I guess this is what we agreed on.
...


I've been wondering if we should be a bit more explicit about agreements. We may have to distinguish between a general agreement that a certain move is good, and a particular vote for that move.

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