is a trigger. Feel free to reject it.
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| Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=12435 |
Page 14 of 18 |
| Author: | TegaiS [ Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
is a trigger. Feel free to reject it.
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| Author: | andreyl [ Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@white
This? Its hard for black to save the top stones
Perhaps this is safer but black gets nice forcing moves and can continue with a or b
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| Author: | andreyl [ Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
white I didnt count this variation,might be a bit tricky for us
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| Author: | skydyr [ Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
andreyl wrote: white I didnt count this variation,might be a bit tricky for us
 as an extension was my first feeling too but I think the hane solves the problems with this squeeze, since we have miai of E18 and H18 to make things safe.I think I'm still okay with black playing another move against the left side, as our stone is fairly light. There are lots of escape routes, and if black pressures it too much, we can always reduce from the outside a lot in sente. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
white If black plays J18 would we play E18?
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| Author: | skydyr [ Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
emeraldemon wrote: white If black plays J18 would we play E18?
I don't see why not. Black's group is very small and still not entirely alive, and I'd be happy to push black along the second line. White's corner is clearly alive, and black's dragon from the left could also be attacked if it is neglected. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@white Alright, let's do the hane. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
Merry Christmas!  Will we see this?
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| Author: | skydyr [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
I'm fine with the hane. Are you in andreyl? We do need to think about whether we need to play a move to live in the corner, though. |
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| Author: | Schachus [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
Bill Spight wrote: Merry Christmas! Will we see this?
I dont think so, it didnt seem to be b's plan(although it looks also good to me). I rather expect
as Joaz first showed, and if E18, after b K17, it looks very good for b to me(left side has the influence, plus the j16 stones dont seem so comfortable), otherwise(so f.ex block at K17) if black dets d17 and c18, how does w even survive it? if w gives up the two stones there, this
looks a lot worse for w than the line you showed, right? Am I missing anything, or is black simply better in all the lines? I think w maybe shouldnt hane, but thats just me. If I am correct in assessing that b is doing well, where did w go wrong? Should w cut the other way, or do you think maybe 3-3 was already questionable, Bill? |
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| Author: | andreyl [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@white Hane is fine |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
Merry Christmas 
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black: This one?
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black: Kirby wrote: This one?
We could play that. They have to give us the two stones, of course. But trying to live underneath is an option too. This may require some serious thinking. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black: Still haven't been studying Go much, lately, but taking the two stones on top seems simple and pretty good.
We have great thickness and also sente. We could attack the left white stone, for example. It cost us the points that white gains on the top. Maybe 16 points or so (marked - white has the corner points whether or not we live on top). Alternatively, if we live on top, let's say it goes like this:
Actually, it might not be bad, but it's less clear to me about the result. White might seal us in:
Although, I admit it might not be that bad for us, given white has a weakness around 'a'. So I suppose... Taking Two Stones Pros: Thick, Sente, Simple variation that seems good Cons: Give white 15~20 points Living on top Pros: Don't give white 15 points; Still somewhat strong on the left; White's stones have aji. Cons: Not as thick as taking two stones; white has room for more variation; if we're sealed in, white can have a better position against our top right star stone. @black: I currently still lean toward taking two stones. Though, living on top seems playable. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@BLACK: Kirby wrote: ... White might seal us in:
I don't think that we can play 27 that low:
I think that we are safer like this:
Kirby wrote: ... ...Taking Two Stones Pros: Thick, Sente, ... Sente may be the deciding issue here. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black: Joaz Banbeck wrote: I don't think that we can play 27 that low:
There's also aji around 'a' and 'b'. Anyway, I think getting sealed in like this hurts the top right star-point stone, so I still think taking two stones is better. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black: Kirby wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: I don't think that we can play 27 that low:
There's also aji around 'a' and 'b'. Anyway, I think getting sealed in like this hurts the top right star-point stone, so I still think taking two stones is better. All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea. But it does not therefore follow that we must take the two stones. We can play 27 at J17.
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black Joaz Banbeck wrote: All that we know for sure is that playing 27 at J18 is a bad idea. I don't follow your logic. I like 27@J18 better than at J17. If white plays as you suggested, we live (as I showed), and white has terrible shape. "It does not therefore follow" that J18 is a bad idea. Sorry if it sounds snarky, but that's the gist I got from your reply. Anyway, capturing two stones in sente still seems like a good idea. |
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| Author: | TegaiS [ Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black:
On this variation: 1) White will have better shape if play K18 immediatly without wJ17 bH18 exchange. 2) @Kirby. Why  at D18 and not at C18?3) In this variation we threaten to kill the White's corner so it will be sente.
1) In this variation we end in gote but I think that the difference with taking two stones is not 16 point but more than 30. 2) If White play  it is better to have our stone at J18 not at J17.
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