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| Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=12435 |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
emeraldemon wrote: @white: The move we talked about before was E18, making the corner safe:
If we go that route it might be good to peep first. If the corner is safe black might be more tempted to ignore it, but now I doubt black would tennuki.
If black tennukis, we can reduce the black stones to one eye, but we have many cutting points:
If we don't capture that stone we have to be sure the white corner can live somehow, it may become a big semeai:
If we could be sure of winning the race after K17 we should go for it, but we are very thin outside. @white I don't like the idea of going for it, because assuming it works, we'll kill the one group at the cost of making black's left side quite strong. In addition:
This is the best I can come up with for white, and black looks alive already, while white may end in ko or make black's other group entirely solid, which defeats the purpose. Regarding the peep, I think we should hold off to keep our options open. Maybe we'll be able to cut later, depending on what happens, and I think it helps black more than white. |
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| Author: | Schachus [ Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
I got it right  . Still I dont understand why none of the white players seem to be overly concerned.. I would be very unhappy, if I had w's position. |
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| Author: | andreyl [ Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
white I also think that we should wait with peep E18 now seems the only option to me |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@BLACK: I'm rather happy with the situation now. White had territory in the lower left, plus komi, plus territory in the upper left that threatened to expand along the upper side. We have thwarted the expansion along the top, and replaced it with our own territory with its corresponding expansionary plans. The natural move is K17, and I suspect that it is best.
White cannot hane because of the weakness at J15 ( filled with  in gote in the diagram below )
And allowing us to turn the corner unopposed looks like a disaster for white:
So I'm fairly certain that we will be looking at this:
Letting white turn is horrible for us:
So we have to extend solidly or tobi. The tobi seems to make white too strong, as all the ladders favor them:
So we probably simply extend:
At this point it gets rather uncertain, but I suspect that white has to continue like this:
Whereupon black is strong enough to jump. |
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| Author: | TegaiS [ Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@Black What about bH14 wJ15 exchange? Is it useful? And what is the correct timing, after wL16 or after wM16? |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@Black TegaiS wrote: What about bH14 wJ15 exchange? Is it useful? And what is the correct timing, after wL16 or after wM16? That is a good question. I've been asking myself that, and not coming up with a definitive answer. For observers: he is asking about this:
...or this:
It gets even more complicated, for H14 might not be our best way of attacking the weak spot. J13 does essentially the same thing, and may get us better aji:
If they ignore it, we capture like this:
If they protect with a tiger's mouth like this:
then we have H14 plus an exchange of  for  , which they would never do if the position were like this:
Or they could try this:
...which may be their best reply. When they do, are we better at J13 or H14? I tend to think that J13 spoils their influence better. And when we are getting territory along the top side, influence is all that they can hope to get in return.  I think that J13 is better than H14, but I'm not positive. And, regardless, I'm not sure when to play either of them. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@Black For now, can we agree on this?
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| Author: | TegaiS [ Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@Black I agree but let's play it without any triggers. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@Kirby: What is up? Have you made a new year's resolution not to play Malkovich games? This one seems forced, so I suspect that you would agree if you were here. But the next few moves are not so obvious. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@white
a jumps out to me. I don't think we can get away with the hane at b. We could also try something like jump to c
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| Author: | andreyl [ Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
white A looks like the only option to me letting black wedge in will destroy our shape and only help black |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@white I agree that with regards to the top side, A is the least problematic move, but I wonder if we're needlessly strengthening black in gote with it. Consider something like this:
The top black group is fairly alive at this point, so I think black can ignore a push for the time being. On the other hand, the left side group is not, and this move puts more pressure on it while dealing with some of the cutting aji. If black tries to cut too directly, we end up with a stronger attack on the left and may be able to take the hane instead of the push later. If we have to leave the top two stones to flounder a bit to preserve the cutting stone, they will still have aji to be pulled out later. On the other hand, if black just jumps out, say to A, it gives white momentum to move with the left side stone. If we expect A or something like it, though, we should consider whether we should peep now or save the aji, though I'm inclined to save it myself. If you all are certain that we can push at the top in sente, I'm fine playing it first, but I think black might offer to trade, and that the trade would be better for black than for white. Maybe I'm wrong though. Thoughts? |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black: My thoughts: 1. I don't really like that we are pushing from behind here. That's one of the downsides of the marked move:
But anyway, that's in the past, and I think I've dwelled on that enough. 2. Given that we are here, I think our focus should be to put pressure on white's group (assuming white extends):
3. I cannot think of a direct attack on the side stone at this time, since white can treat it lightly:
4. We eventually have to answer at the top, since white's extension is sente. Furthermore, like Joaz says, the jump doesn't really work that well:
5. So I think we should make white's group heavy, and keep pressure on it. There's not a direct way to capture it or to make a lot of profit. But we should keep it heavy. My vote is to play the atari immediately to achieve this:
The reason is that it gets them heavy, keeps our wall solid and without defects, allowing us to come back to the top and answer like we have to. 6. I think Joaz's idea of knight's move is good for extending our influence. But I fear that they will protect in sente (since we have to answer on the top), and then counter attack. For example:
The marked move becomes relevant as a ladder breaker, and things get more complicated. The plus side of this variation is that white's group is heavy. For example, later we have hane:
But white's group is not captured, and who is weaker is not clear to me. If we play the simple atari, our groups are all strong, and white is the only one with a heavy group.
7. That being said, the atari doesn't provide as much influence as Joaz's knight's move. But it leaves less weaknesses for the opponent to counter attack. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
I'm going to be traveling until Tuesday, so my posting will be spotty at best. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black: Kirby wrote: ... I think Joaz's idea of knight's move is good for extending our influence. But I fear that they will protect in sente (since we have to answer on the top), and then counter attack. For example:
I've been trying to find a reliable continuation here, but I have come to the conclusion that the aji is terrible. Therefore, I agree with Kirby when he says: Kirby wrote: My vote is to play the atari immediately to achieve this:
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@white I thought about something that direction, but i'm worried black will just hane:
After the hane i think we have to protect our cutting stones, then i'm not sure if the position is good for us. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
emeraldemon wrote: @white I thought about something that direction, but i'm worried black will just hane:
After the hane i think we have to protect our cutting stones, then i'm not sure if the position is good for us. Perhaps you're right. It doesn't look like we can crosscut successfully there. I'm fine with just extending then. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game |
@black: Kirby wrote: ... My vote is to play the atari immediately to achieve this:
This seems best to me. @TegaiS: I think that you have referred to something like this in the recent past. Shall we tell them that we play and that  is a trigger if they play ?And... shall we give them two addtional triggers like this?
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