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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #181 Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:37 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
Was liked: 239
Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Hehe, sorry, forgot to actually make the move XD
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #182 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:43 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 353
Liked others: 36
Was liked: 14
Rank: German 1k
KGS: 1.Dan
OGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: Celebrir
illluck wrote:
Hehe, sorry, forgot to actually make the move XD


I was close to making the same mistake this move :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm161 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . . 2 . . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have some positions which I want to get:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm159 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O a O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | c X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . d . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X b |
$$ | O O . . e . . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's count a little bit:
'a' is worth 2 points and has continuation which is wort 1 point, which I won't get because it is sente for him to protect it.
For the other moves we have to look at what he happens if he plays there and what happens if I play there:

'b' if B plays:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . 4 O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O C C C 2 |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . C C O 1 |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X 3 |
$$ | O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . X X X C |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X C C |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

5-3 points -> 2 point more for me + the annoying cut is protected. But this is his sente !

'b'if W plays:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . C O O a |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O C C b . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . C C O 3 |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X 1 |
$$ | O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . X X X 2 |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X C C |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he plays at 'a' I have to play at 'b' because of the cut.
5-2 -> 3 points more for me in gote.
Result: This is 1 point in reverse sente.

Next move: Dia.1 'c' if B plays:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | C O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O C O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | 2 O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | 1 C C . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | C X C . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | C C X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

2-6 points -> 4 points more for him in sente (I don't think it would be good to deny :w2: here, but that might be wrong)

Dia.1 'c' if W plays:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | C O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O C O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | 5 O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | 3 4 C . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | 1 X C . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | 2 C X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

2-3 points -> 1 point more for him in gote.
Result: 3 points in reverse sente.

Next move: Dia.1 'd' if B plays

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . C X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . C C C 1 2 O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X C C 3 . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . C X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

0-4 -> 6 points more for him in gote

Dia.1 'd' if I play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . C X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . C 2 1 . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . 3 . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . C X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

0-3 -> 3 points more for him, but my gote.
Result: 3 points in gote.

Dia. 1 'e' if B plays:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X C X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . 1 . C C . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . C 2 O X C C X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . C O a . X C . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . C . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have to play :w2: because of 'a' and I don't feel comfortable with a ko in this situation.
3-6 points-> 3 points more for him in sente

Dia. 1 'e' if W plays:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X C X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O C 3 1 2 C . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . C C O X . C X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . C O . . X C . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . C . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

5-4 in gote -> 1 points more for me in gote
Result: 4 points in reverse sente

All results:
'a' is 2 point reverse sente
'b' is 1 point reverse sente
'c' is 3 point reverse sente
'd' is 3 point gote.
'e' is 4 point reverse sente

I really don' like how much sente he seems to have and I even didn't look at all of his sente moves because they seem to be small for me to play. However, after this counting 'e' seems to be the best. Please correct me if I made mistakes with this counting (In hide tags I can read after the game)
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #183 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:00 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
Was liked: 239
Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm161 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . . O 3 . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #184 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:35 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 353
Liked others: 36
Was liked: 14
Rank: German 1k
KGS: 1.Dan
OGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm161 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O . O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . 4 O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The nice side effect of this is that the ko becomes more difficult for him as well.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #185 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:05 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1223
Liked others: 738
Was liked: 239
Rank: OGS 2d
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm161 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O 6 O O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O 5 O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #186 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:32 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 353
Liked others: 36
Was liked: 14
Rank: German 1k
KGS: 1.Dan
OGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm167 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 6 O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | 4 5 . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | 2 X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | 3 . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Nice, that he feared the ko enough to play a gote move. I'll just take the next reverse sente in my list.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #187 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm167 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O 7 |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This seems more profitable than the O14 push + R16 block.
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #188 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm171 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . . O X X 5 |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . 6 O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . 4 |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I have to be careful here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . 3 O X X 7 |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . 2 O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . 4 5 1 |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . 6 O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he plays at :w7: I have to protect the cut. Triggers done like that.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #189 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:34 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm171 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . 6 O X X 7 |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . 5 O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . 4 |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not a huge difference, but feels like this leaves a bit more aji.
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #190 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm171 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . 8 . O |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, that's a little bit more aji than the trigger for ko threats but no points lost because I get another prisoner.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #191 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm171 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . 0 9 X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm181 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , 7 . O . . O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . . 6 . . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . 5 O . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O 2 O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . 1 O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O 3 X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . 4 O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #192 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:42 am 
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Universal go server handle: Celebrir
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm187 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . b . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X 5 a O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O 4 X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O 2 3 . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O 0 O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , X 9 O . . O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . X O . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course you can play :b95: :w96: at another time. If you answer at a I play b and if you play at b I answer at a

There it is, his big flow of sentes... And I realized, that my shape at :b93: is really bad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 illluck vs. Celebrir - Dia.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O 4 X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O 8 O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , X 1 O 7 9 O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . 3 O 5 . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . X O 6 . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Playing there would be a one point gote because I have to protect against it...
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #193 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:34 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm197 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O O X . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O O O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O . . O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . 1 O 2 . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X . X . X O . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure why white chose to play the double gote hane on lower left when E10 and then E9 is points in sente for black.
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #194 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:14 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm200 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O O X . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O 2 O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O 3 . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O O O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O . . O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . X O O . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X 8 X . X O . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | X X O 6 1 0 X O X O . . . . . . . O 5 |
$$ | X O O 7 9 X . X O O . . . . O O O X 4 |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm210 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . 5 O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 . . O X X . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O O X . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X 1 . . . X O X O X O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . 4 X X X X X X X O O . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O O O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O . . O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . X O O . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X X X . X O . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | X X O X O X X O X O . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | X O O O O X . X O O . . . . O O O X X |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X 2 X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you pass, I pass as well

I hope I didn't missed something but I think the order of the one point moves is not that important.

Black won with a little bit more points than I counted the last time. I think that is because he had much better sente moves than I had. And I think I should have played 'a' instead of :w62: here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm167 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | 6 O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X . . . . X O X O . O O X . . |
$$ | 4 5 . . . X X X X X X X O . . O X . . |
$$ | 2 X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | 3 . X X O O . O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . a b . O . . O . O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . O . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X O X O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | X O O . . X . X O O . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . X . X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I missed the bad shape I get from black playing at 'b'


EDIT:
I just realized I missed something to get one more point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm210 illluck vs. Celebrir - Prisoners: 0-3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O X X 6 . 7 O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 . . O X X . O X O O X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O X . O X X X X X . . |
$$ | O . O X X . . . X X O O O O X O O X . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O . X O X O X X O X . . |
$$ | O X X . X 2 . . . X O X O X O O X . . |
$$ | O X . . . X X X X X X X O O . O X . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O X O X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | X . X X O O O O O X O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , X X O . . O . O . . O O X X X |
$$ | . X . . . X O O . O . . . . . X O O X |
$$ | . . X X X . X O . . . . . . O . O . O |
$$ | X X O X O X X O X O . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | X O O O O X . X O O . . . . O O O X X |
$$ | O O . O O X . . X X O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X 1 X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . X 3 X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . 4 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I feel like posting those triggers is like playing moves so I won't change it now.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #195 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:26 am 
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I pass as well.

Using Cgoban to count, black wins by 6.5?
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #196 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:31 am 
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Universal go server handle: Celebrir
Yeah, that's my result as well. Thanks for the game, it was a really intresting one :) I'll take a look at the comments now and review them. I think I'll post some aftergame thoughts as well as soon as I finished.
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #197 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:32 am 
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Thank you for the game as well, quite exciting (especially towards the end)!

I'll be looking through the comments now as well, but probably won't post thoughts today as I have some random school work to do.
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Offline Celebrir
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #198 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Was liked: 14
Rank: German 1k
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OGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: Celebrir
Comments about comments:

Loons after B13: Right, that would have been a great game :)

flOvermind after W16: I was to worried about black taking sente to play at something liek Q10 here. Maybe you're right and I should have played there.

flOvermind after W22: I think I failed to make clear what I wanted to say here. "Of course this is a probe. So he doesn't have to play the full variations now." should pretty much say what Uberdude pointed out later.

illuck at 101: I agree that this was the best move for you here.

hyperpape after W144: Couldn't :w8: be at :b9: in your first diagram ? W still has two libierties. With this it doesn't seem like B got uch out of this.

Moves I like:

B7: Really looks more intresting than D2...

B13: I think this made the game far more intresting.

W16: This seems to be a move where I disagree with illucks comments. I still like it because I think it was this move which allowed my to build a big center.

W56: This really seems to big, but I don't see a way to punish it without much danger for B so it seems to be great.

W62: Later this did a lot of good things for me connecting wouldn't have done.

B63: This seems like a big miss for me...

W68: Another move which seems to much at first glance but works out well.

B87 & B89: Got me completly unprepared... Was sure to get sente here...

W108: For me it looks like I get the more than I should.

W156: Got me one more sente and was my in my opinion best endgame move.

Moves I dislike:

W8: I'm not sure whether this was really the best... Now it feels like I'm overconcentrating my stones in the corners while black develops quickly.

B43: Is that really joseki ? The block seems to be far to good for W...

W64: The discussion afterwards shows why I don't like it anymore... I really should have played a little more aggressive here...

B141: I still think he should have played at the top... Any thought from you illuck ?

W168: Should be at D10...

W210: Should be at B211 like I wrote at my last hidden comment.

Conclusion of this game: I'm quite satisfied with the result. It was my first time I played a more serious game against double san-san and I think I did quite well. Besides I normally don't go for large center groups like the stones around N8 are, so it was a good experience for me. I should have played more aggressive at some parts which seems a little bit like a good sign because I was to aggressive for a long time. I just have to find the right mix. Another thing I feel is that I gave away to much sente moves but I don't know what to do against that...

Thanks to everyone who wrote comments to this game. Malkovich is really a nice experience :tmbup:
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: 154. illuck vs. Celebrir
Post #199 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:16 pm 
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It's a bit late, but I'm now finally going through the comments :) Thanks to everyone spent their time to leave comments!

I won't really comment on the individual moves because 1) they are mostly explained when I made the moves and 2) I have managed to forget most of what I read but didn't post at the time.

Instead, I'll talk about my overall feelings about this game.

I think Celebrir played very well, and I got a bit lucky in the endgame despite the J7 blunder. It feels like part of my issue for this game was that I was too laid back and optimistic (for example, looking back, magicwand's suggestion of peep and then shoulderhit instead of R12 at move 45 looks much more active). I had managed to convince myself that I was comfortably ahead until near the endgame, when I tried to count more accurately and realized that it was a really close game XD

I also feel like I got a bit outread at places by Celebrir - for example, giving white the ponnuki on the left-centre because I missed a cut and later in game I missed that white can L16 peep until it was too late.

Thanks again to Celebrir for the fun and exciting game :)
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