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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #101 Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b54: is neither here nor there. Aside from leaving a heavy group in the top right, it is too close to Black's strength in the top left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On the left side I think that :b54: in this diagram is good. "a" allows White to come in with a wedge at "b".

But of course White has a good play in the top right at :w55:. (When to play it is another question.) The trouble with sacrificing the top right corner is that White still has weaknesses on top, which a play like :w55: covers. Black does not want to sacrifice both the corner and the invasion or reduction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , 5 . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The proverb says that the one space jump, :b54:, is never bad, but after :w55: Black has no attractive move and his stones are still floating.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . 0 . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . 8 4 5 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 9 . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What about this :b54:? White cannot push and cut.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , 7 5 O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . 6 4 . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 8 . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After this sequence Black has eye potential and elbow room. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: topazg
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #102 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:22 am 
Honinbo

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Aphelion: I guess I can read your response...?

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #103 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:25 am 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I forgot how damaging these games can be to my ego... :)

Anyway, I have a bit of time, so I decided to respond to yithril's move. I think it's good to protect the corner, because the move I played last is in a good spot for a sequence like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X 4 . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White doesn't have a great extension.

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #104 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:28 am 
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Oops, yea Kirby that response is for you so feel free to open the hide tags.
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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #105 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 7 X . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Extending here seemed like it's just too easy. I gotta make his narrow extension from before even more narrow by grabbing as much territory as possible here. Like I said earlier, the top right should help me extend my top territory and actually secure it, but there's no reason to rush there now.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #106 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:00 pm 
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I would like to resign. Thanks for playing.

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #107 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:47 pm 
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what?! WHY?!!!?
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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #108 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:02 pm 
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**Blink**

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Offline schilds
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #109 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:51 pm 
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If it's really over, I suppose the players can read this:
Can black seal white into the corner in sente with c5 - c4 - b5?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 9 O X . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . 7 X . . . X . . . O . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



White could tenuki after after d3 - e3 - c2 - e4, and play ko for life after I guess, though black could not fix the cut at d4 and tenuki because if white cuts, he has that ko too. Or is this the wrong direction even if it works?

And in the top right, how does white respond to black s15? It seems to me that black can either cut white or make room for another (gote) eye in the corner (depending on how white responds) because he has s13 and r18.

My somewhat fuzzy reading could be wrong on both of these, though :p.

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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #110 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:26 pm 
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Kirby: you use to resign way too early (if you didn't have different reason for resigning else than game situation). unfortunately it is hard to convince someone about that, but you should believe that you are a beatiful unique snowflake of unique specialness and that you can win even if you sit against 9p, until he proves the opposite - and i think in this game you are still clearly not in a losing position, especially because top-right is not definitely dead (or you can use it as a source of great aji)

maybe you could try to play a game against someone weaker and get more self-confidence (most of your games i saw you were playing black)

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #111 Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:09 am 
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Chew Terr wrote:
I'm really looking forwards to this game. I like Yithril's style of writing in the book of his I read, so I imagine the comments and diagrams will be useful. However, it's hard not to cheer for Kirby, as one of our own. It'll be interesting to watch, especially as Yithril is a self-proclaimed fighter/"push-and-cut junkie". Good luck for an enjoyable game, to both of you!

he is not only self-proclaimed but magicwand approved fighter/push and cut junkie. :tmbup:

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Offline SpongeBob
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #112 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:34 am 
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Until the R15 move, Kirby played a good game. (I did not like G3 though, for the reasons that Araban explained.) But with the R15 move, letting white connect his groups and giving himself a weak group, he lost at least two, if not all three of his handicap stones. Against a solid player like yithril, I feels like he cannot win this game anymore.

Although it is very unsatisfactory for the players and the crowd, I can understand that Kirby resigns. It is not only about the bad prospects in the game, it is also about the bad feeling after an unnecessary mistake. In a real time game, you can continue and see if your opponent makes a similar mistake. In a turn-based game, it is hard to continue.

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