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95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3105		 Page 6 of 8
Author:  judicata [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Helel wrote:
@Everyone:

Posting of sequences really don't save that much time and they have the potential to cause confusion about what has been played and what's only been suggested. Are they really necessary? Would people miss them if they were disallowed?


What do you mean disallowed? There aren't really referees for Malkovich games--if the players want to say "no suggested sequences" at the outset of the game (just as they sometimes do with whether to allow joseki lookup) they certainly may.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Just change the caption of the diagram. :) (EDIT: oh, I missed a page. Well at least you know no one is lying to you...)

Armpit hit followed by hane-at-head-of-two. No likey.

Is this an emergency situation? That's the only time you should play such moves.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Helel wrote:
Posting of sequences really don't save that much time and they have the potential to cause confusion about what has been played and what's only been suggested.


Save time compared to what? I'm not sure I follow.

Helel wrote:
Are they really necessary?


No.

Helel wrote:
Would people miss them if they were disallowed?


I certainly would.
Author:  Aphelion [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Captured Stones: W 0 B 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X W . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What is this discussion all about?

Balmung: I meant for the captured stones to indicate the actual color of the stones captured, not the stones that each side has captured. Feel free to change it if you dislike it.
Author:  judicata [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Helel wrote:
What did you think I meant?


I had no idea. It seems an odd thing for the moderators to moderate.

@Aphelion: Sorry, this was on-topic coming from a hidden comment, but it is probably not good to keep the discussion going in a Malkovich game.
Author:  judicata [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Helel wrote:
Given the clarity of mind that usually characterizes your posts I find it utterly unlikely that you didn't understand this immediately. You are obviously making yourself willfully obtuse. Why?


Since Shawshank Redemption has been playing on cable recently, I associate the word "obtuse" as something more offensive than it actually is. :) Seriously, I didn't know if you meant some collective action, official moderator statement, or something else. Of course, moderator intervention did come to mind.

Helel wrote:
I took the relevant part out of hiding in the above post. I didn't intend to start a discussion here and I will not post more about the subject in this tread.


It isn't Helel's fault--the discussion really is relevant to an important comment that was made, as discussions naturally flow.
Author:  balmung [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Captured Stones: W 0 B 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  yoyoma [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
In Go you can't follow your opponent around the board. You have to have kiai/fighting spirit/ willpower!

I view considering and accepting/rejecting your opponent's suggested sequences as a part of this.
Author:  Aphelion [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
I looked through the entire game and only found one sequence that I posted:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I didn't think much about this because this is joseki and such a standard choice in this position. However, it seems that there is some unhappiness / argument about it. I would request that we go back to this position because I don't want to win a game this way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Balmung, its to you.
Author:  balmung [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
I mean it's fine either way but I guess we could start from there. Okay I will post the move I wanted to play


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Aphelion [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Wow, very gracious of Aphelion... White had a won game IMO.
Author:  balmung [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . B , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  judicata [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
balmung, do you have time to post your expected continuation or your thoughts?
Author:  schultz [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
daniel_the_smith wrote:
Wow, very gracious of Aphelion... White had a won game IMO.

Yeah, well this does remove any of the "bad aji" feelings that balmung currently has about the situation.

Personally, I think it's almost a little late for him to be complaining a whole lot about it. On a different note, though, I also didn't think the sequences caused that much problem (but we've already had enough other discussions about it from other people in this thread, so I'll end here and not keep hammering on this anymore than I already have).

Now we get back to the game and let us see how balmung likes the change for this game. ;)
Author:  Aphelion [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pincering high is probably better for Black.
Author:  schilds [ Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Balmung wrote:
... tell me what you think.


I think you should go back and read your own post laying out what you expected as a result of white's bottom right approach. I think you'll find it's not dissimilar to white's suggested sequence. I think you didn't object because it's essentially what you were expecting. I think you're now making excuses for the bad result starting with the actual mistake of your premature invasion and subsequent abandonment of your invasion stones in such a way that attempts to pretend the mistake was something else and absolve yourself of responsibility for it. I think white is far too kind and finally, I think the argument between the observers which only lends support to your excuse is a mistake and so I'm posting this.
Author:  Puppycakes [ Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
I don't mind the idea of starting over. I had pretty much already given Aphelion the victory in my mind.

Hopefully both players can learn from this game. That's the point anyway. So a friendly take back isn't a problem. But I do think it is silly to automatically consider a sequence as definitive. I mean, come on, who doesn't realize that you have a choice about which moves you choose to play.

Plus I think that Aphelion looks like the much stronger player in my opinion and I think he'll win either way.
Author:  balmung [ Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
schilds wrote:
Balmung wrote:
... tell me what you think.


I think you should go back and read your own post laying out what you expected as a result of white's bottom right approach. I think you'll find it's not dissimilar to white's suggested sequence. I think you didn't object because it's essentially what you were expecting. I think you're now making excuses for the bad result starting with the actual mistake of your premature invasion and subsequent abandonment of your invasion stones in such a way that attempts to pretend the mistake was something else and absolve yourself of responsibility for it. I think white is far too kind and finally, I think the argument between the observers which only lends support to your excuse is a mistake and so I'm posting this.


Wow what a rude assumption first off I would naturally play the move that I talked about. Secondly I was perfectly content with playing out the game, but my opponent suggested we go back and I'm fine with that as well. First thing you must learn is tact, rude assumptions should not be stated like this especially when you don't know what is going on in the persons head at any given time unless revealed to you. Secondly, Go is a learning experience so at the end of the day if I win or lose does it really matter as long as I learn from my mistakes.

Aphelion I will quit the game now, and this not your fault I'm tired of being poked at by tactless people who take this stuff way to seriously, and further more I had no expectations of beating you without some form of handicap you are a superior player. Schilds I'm appalled at your behavior and I do not tolerate disrespect from people who make assumptions.
Author:  balmung [ Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Also side note I was not trying to complain about not getting to play the move I was pointing out what I had been beating myself up about during the course of the game, and the only reason I posted it was not to get a redo, but to see what the obs opinion on that move was to know if I had been beating my self up for a good reason. In the end does it really matter that I lost? Ask your selves this because the answer is no the most valuable thing you can get in Go is a loss because you learn the most from it.
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