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Offline opex
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #101 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:03 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm68 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline DJLLAP
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #102 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm68 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline opex
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #103 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:00 pm 
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This group needs urgent help. Nobi L7 is bad after
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 6 4 2 O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . 5 3 O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Connection M6 feels slow. So I chose this move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 1 . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline DJLLAP
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #104 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:36 am 
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Universal go server handle: djllap
Sorry about my absence. A combination of indecision and distraction :)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . a X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . b O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This makes miai of A and B. I am glad I took many days to make this move at first I did not see it and thought this game was hopeless. Odd that such a simple move can be hard for me to find.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #105 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:12 pm 
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Safe?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #106 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:31 pm 
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How would you respond to this :b73:?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . 3 O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Perhaps this :w72: might be safer.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 3 O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline konfuzed
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #107 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Looks like B still captures the top with a net if white plays that 72. Emeraldemon's empty triangle to steal a liberty was my thought as well.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 6 . 4 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 5 O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 3 O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EDIT: but as far as I can see the empty triangle ultimately doesn't work either.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Safe?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 7 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 2 X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O 5 O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . 8 . 4 O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #108 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Good call. In that case, perhaps White should just try to minimize the damage and play this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 3 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, I need to read the empty triangle variation some more. Maybe White can prevail somehow.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #109 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:05 am 
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If White plays the empty triangle variation, Black has at least one sure way of killing one of the cutting groups:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc a and b are miai
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . a , 4 . 2 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 5 3 O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 8 6 X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b . . 1 O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Therefore, White needs to accept having made a mistake, minimize the damage, and bite down hard in preparation for the tough struggle ahead.

_________________
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline opex
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #110 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:08 am 
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Sorry for being slow, i have too many things going on and wish i had more time :)

Again i missed that move. Now it looks like i was too optimistic. I can't save both groups. Then i'll connect two weak groups and abandon four stones for now.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm72 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 1 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #111 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:19 am 
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@opex after the game
Excellent choice, opex! Rather than worsening your position further by going for a futile all-in play of trying to save both cutting groups, you chose to hunker down and steel yourself for a prolonged struggle, Russian-Labor-Defense style. :clap: You truly are a tough nut to crack. :D (Sorry observers, Russian joke.)

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Offline DJLLAP
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #112 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm72 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



As planned. I reread some variations, but don't see anything that is bad for Black
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Offline opex
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #113 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:28 pm 
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I wanted to reinforce bottom left, but didn't find how :) So I'll take away this big sente invasion.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline DJLLAP
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #114 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:40 pm 
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According to my counting I am 10-15 points ahead in solid territory. I think that if I can pull off a good job in reducing White's moyo I stand a good chance of winning. Sliding at "a" looks big, but is not necessarily sente, and I don't think I can give W a free move on the left side. Splitting moves like "c" or "d" also look attractive, but I am not very confident that they can live without giving away a lot of thickness. "d" looks like the better option because if the support given by m17. The moves I am thinking about the most are "b" and something close to "e". "b" would give W the opportunity to build a wall facing her forces on the north, but may also split off her stones at D4. Something around "e"that puts pressure on w's group there looks good to me. If I play it right, I may be able to create a wall facing the left side that will aid in invasions or reductions. I think I am going to read out some variations and post again later today or maybe tomorrow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . d . . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline DJLLAP
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #115 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:17 pm 
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Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 2 . . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I decided on this move. No real particular reason why. Just a feeling it might be the best. I was too lazy to read everything out.
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Offline peppernut
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #116 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:10 am 
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This strikes me as the wrong side, if you're going to invade. Given that there's 1 more space on the left side, does anyone else think that C11 is a more appropriate invasion?

I think I get Black's idea; the K16 stone is pincered, but White can simply attack :b75: and gain strength that way. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 6 . 2 3 . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 8 . 4 . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and black is not yet alive while White is making lots of territory, and reducing black's potential on the upper right. The white stone at K16 has no problem escaping because it can go to either side.


Last edited by peppernut on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Dragon Pie
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #117 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:35 pm 
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peppernut wrote:
This strikes me as the wrong side, if you're going to invade. Given that there's 1 more space on the left side, does anyone else think that C11 is a more appropriate invasion?

I think I get Black's idea; the K16 stone is pincered, but White can simply attack :b74: and gain strength that way. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 6 . 2 3 . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 8 . 4 . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and black is not yet alive while White is making lots of territory, and reducing black's potential on the upper right. The white stone at K16 has no problem escaping because it can go to either side.

I'd want to invade somewhere around where he invaded keeping in mind that he has support nearby and also considering that I'd hope to activate the aji O10.
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Offline opex
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #118 Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:07 am 
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Hm, i expected that since my stone is on the fourth line, it doesn't hold territory, and black can grab it, but i want to receive thickness in return. I couldn't find a nice move to build a wall facing bottom. So i'll treat this as an invasion and separate black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . X 1 . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline DJLLAP
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #119 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:06 am 
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Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . X O . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




This is really the only answer I considered. If White jumps With 1, I am undecided between an extension at "b", or trying to split attacking the right side group at "a". White cannot connect under at "c" without a Ko fight, so it may be a good chance to make some profit attacking, but if I lose sente at all, My other group may come under severe attack.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 Captures: b - 1, w - 6.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . b . . X O . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Post #120 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:58 am 
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If White plays :w1: (which he pretty much has to), I would first consider :b2:. The White group is in no way stronger than the Black group. Thus, if the two groups keep pushing one another toward the center where Black is strong (marked stones), the fight would become disadvantageous for White. As such, Black could expect to have no difficulties saving his invasion group after :b2:. The moves which DJLLAP considers seem much less promising to me by contrast.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . X O . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B B X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O |
$$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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