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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #101 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:17 pm 
Gosei

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I don't see life. Do you see life?

For beginners:

This general shape is called an L-group, and it is dead.

Here's the basic shape. The two marked stones :bc: and :wc: make no difference. This is a good shape to study as it does come up in games quite often, I find:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm61
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . . .
$$ | . O O W X . . . .
$$ | . X X B X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #102 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:33 pm 
Oza

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Marcus wrote:
I don't see life. Do you see life?

For beginners:

This general shape is called an L-group, and it is dead.

Here's the basic shape. The two marked stones :bc: and :wc: make no difference. This is a good shape to study as it does come up in games quite often, I find:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm61
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . . .
$$ | . O O W X . . . .
$$ | . X X B X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The other problem is that DeFlow just made a bulky 5, instead of protecting the vital point at B18. I think white could at least have gotten a ko from bent 4 in the corner from that.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #103 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:02 pm 
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DeFlow wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 1 , X O . . . O . X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Let's live in the corner
No.
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Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #104 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm61 Captured stones: White 0, Black 2
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 1 , X O . . . O . X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O O X O O O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X O O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Observers:
Vital point & belly attachement. Dead now. Long live my essential life & death books ! :-)
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #105 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:17 pm 
Gosei

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skydyr wrote:
Marcus wrote:
I don't see life. Do you see life?

For beginners:

This general shape is called an L-group, and it is dead.

Here's the basic shape. The two marked stones :bc: and :wc: make no difference. This is a good shape to study as it does come up in games quite often, I find:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm61
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O X . . . .
$$ | . O O W X . . . .
$$ | . X X B X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Nope, B18 is still dead, even with :bc: and :wc: missing. :)


The other problem is that DeFlow just made a bulky 5, instead of protecting the vital point at B18. I think white could at least have gotten a ko from bent 4 in the corner from that.


Last edited by Marcus on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #106 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Marcus your hide tags are broken!!!


Last edited by otenki on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #107 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:20 pm 
Gosei

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otenki wrote:
marcus your hide tags are broken!!!


I saw, fixed, damn hide within hide!
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #108 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Marcus wrote:
I saw, fixed, damn hide within hide!
Use the Preview button before Submit.
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Offline DeFlow
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #109 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:54 am 
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After this failure in the corner, I think it is time to resign.

Move 63 kind of re-enables the cut at H14 and with a weak group in the middle and a near-dead group on the top side I cannot find any time to invade the moyo in the top right. You skilfully dodged the attack on your bottom group (after I 'misclicked' my invasion, by the way ^^) by sacrificing the corner. Another key move, which I should have been able to get, was protecting your top right corner. Well done!

It all started after my stupid attempt to cut your knight's move cap, and went downhill from there.
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Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #110 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:11 am 
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Thanks for the game DeFlow, It was a very intresting one!
Lets play again some time.

Now finaly the moment I have been waiting for, reading all of the comments in this thread :-)

Cheers,
Otenki
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Offline DeFlow
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #111 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:28 am 
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One question to you and to 'the crowd'. Did I resign to early? I find it hard to find the right moment for this. Of course I don't want to take your joy away of crushing me (of course in secret I do, but I will never admit!). On the other hand playing a lost game a waste of our time.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #112 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:41 am 
Oza

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DeFlow wrote:
It all started after my stupid attempt to cut your knight's move cap, and went downhill from there.


If you're referring to moves 12-14, once you start to cut, you need to continue.
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Offline DeFlow
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #113 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:49 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
DeFlow wrote:
It all started after my stupid attempt to cut your knight's move cap, and went downhill from there.


If you're referring to moves 12-14, once you start to cut, you need to continue.


Yeah you're right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've just reviewed the game, and that I did not capture this stone was so... strange.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #114 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:56 pm 
Oza

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Oh, I mean earlier than that... right when the pushing battle started, white could have cut.
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Offline DeFlow
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #115 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:57 pm 
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I could have, the fight did not seem favourable to me though. Then again, I just did not like my move to lean against the knight's cap because neither fighting nor pushing seems attractive in hindsight.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Post #116 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:07 pm 
Oza

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Arguably issues stem back earlier than that, because by that point, the fight wasn't that great. On the other hand, ceding 5th or 6th line territory to run on dame instead wasn't exactly ideal either. To be honest, for move 6 I rather favoured an approach to the 5-3 stone. Perhaps on the 4-5 point. That's a completely different game, though. Also, I will be the first to admit I am far from having a perfect understanding of go.
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