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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #141 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:04 pm 
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Instead of :b60: , the turn-block :b1: seems quite natural:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Wed Nov 19, 2014. 09:04 am )
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Offline Aidoneus
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #142 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:55 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm66
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So, I'm wrong, again... Now B9 looks too small. I've read that the one-space jump to the center is almost always good, but it feels like I've already given up too much territory in this game! And I don't see how to develop a moyo with all the sides open the way they are. :sad:
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #143 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Aidoneus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm66
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So, I'm wrong, again... Now B9 looks too small. I've read that the one-space jump to the center is almost always good, but it feels like I've already given up too much territory in this game! And I don't see how to develop a moyo with all the sides open the way they are. :sad:


So, what is D10 doing that is so important you need to try to save it? Why would white care? When a stone isn't performing any function and is plastered against a live group, it's time to tenuki for something useful rather than threaten to save a stone white shouldn't care enough about to capture.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #144 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:05 am 
Judan

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66 isn't quite as silly as it looks as it does have a threat of the d9 cut, which isn't the biggest move on the board (k15 perhaps) but isn't small

EdLee wrote:
Instead of :b60: , the turn-block :b1: seems quite natural:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


And sente to kill at 3.

In the game white k15 now has sneaky future aims of killing the top left/right black groups.


Last edited by Uberdude on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline wineandgolover
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #145 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:30 am 
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Ed, I know you have a pure aesthetic sense, but could you please publish coordinates on your turn? It makes the comments far easier to follow, because not everybody diagrams every time. Thanks.

Hope all is well in <deleted> Asia.

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #146 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:42 am 
Oza

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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Uberdude wrote:
66 isn't quite as silly as it looks as it does have a threat of the d9 cut, which isn't the biggest move on the board (k15 perhaps) but isn't small



I was perhaps overly dramatic, but I don't see those two stones as being particularly valuable to white at the moment, when compared with the topside stone, for example.
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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #147 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:01 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
66 isn't quite as silly as it looks as it does have a threat of the d9 cut, which isn't the biggest move on the board (k15 perhaps) but isn't small

EdLee wrote:
Instead of :b60: , the turn-block :b1: seems quite natural:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


And sente to kill at 3.

In the game white k15 now has sneaky future aims of killing the top left/right black groups.


Does it work unconditionally? I think there may be a desperation ko left for white, with an example line being:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | 4 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 W . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


It's 'orrible for white. But it may become playable later into the game.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #148 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:58 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm67
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Thur Nov 20, 2014. 10:58 am )

Hi W&GL, thanks; please see PM (when I have WiFi). :)
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Offline Aidoneus
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #149 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:53 am 
Lives in gote

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It's hell getting up at night and not being able to get back to sleep, so I'm posting a move that I hope is reasonable. :roll:

@ Ed: BTW, I figure with our vast strength difference that this is a teaching game. When my game reaches the hopeless stage just let me know and I'll resign. For the moment, I feel like I have almost enough potential territory to compensate for your realized territory. Just let me know when you know that this is clearly not true. :mrgreen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm68
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I considered G8, S6, and K15, all of which I rejected because they allow White to play P8 unhindered. I also considered P8 for awhile, but after looking at some sequences starting with Q7 (elephant eye) I decided to go with the attachment even though I've read to not attach to weak stones. In this particular position, though, I think that my only hope is to try and block White's access to the center.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #150 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:48 am 
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Hi Aidoneus, consider every game a teaching game. :)
See also PM. And stay warm! :)

( Local time Thur Nov 20, 2014. 6:48 pm )
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Offline wineandgolover
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #151 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:01 am 
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Hi Ed,

I liked your PM about coordinates and believe you should consider making it public.

I'd be interested in others' reactions.

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #152 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:15 am 
Judan

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Aidoneus wrote:
I considered G8, S6, and K15, all of which I rejected because they allow White to play P8 unhindered. I also considered P8 for awhile, but after looking at some sequences starting with Q7 (elephant eye) I decided to go with the attachment even though I've read to not attach to weak stones. In this particular position, though, I think that my only hope is to try and block White's access to the center.


(for Aidoneus after the game or obs)
Good. It's important to block centre and connect to q10. It's ok to attach to white here because it's not really a weak stone: it can connect above or below. In fact this white invasion is not so amazing as black had no points here anyway as open at both sides. It would be a mistake for white to take gote and allow k15.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #153 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:10 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
I liked your PM about coordinates and believe you should consider making it public.
Hi W&GL, coördinates babble. :)
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Offline EdLee
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Post #154 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm69
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Fri Nov 21, 2014. 10:30 am )
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Offline Aidoneus
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #155 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:18 pm 
Lives in gote

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I just bought Invincible in SmartGo format. I'm going to snuggle under some warm blankets and read. (It's down to 20 F, after a high today of 23 F, and heading to the low teens overnight.) First, I might fix myself a nice Everclear fizz (190 proof grain alcohol and True Lemon packet), purely for fortification, mind you. Everclear is a great drink for camping as it can also be used in alcohol stoves. ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm70
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I took a couple seconds to reject playing R9.
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Offline Aidoneus
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #156 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:20 pm 
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There I go splitting my infinitives, time for bed! :oops:
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #157 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:36 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm71
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
( Local time Fri Nov 21, 2014. 11:36 am )
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Offline Aidoneus
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #158 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:22 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm72
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I vacillated between my move and R7 before deciding that Q7 looked more solid.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #159 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:22 pm 
Judan
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Aidoneus wrote:
...I vacillated between my move and R7 before deciding that Q7 looked more solid.


P8 would have been solid in the direction that counts. Black is not going to win this game by making points with R6. But he might win it with a huge moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm72
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . X C . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X X O . O O X . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Also, now R10 is sente.

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Offline paK0
 Post subject: Re: #244 Bill vs Ed
Post #160 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:49 pm 
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Does black even need to be afraid of whites territory? I suck at counting, but it feels like depending on endgame white does not even have that much compared to blacks potential in the center.

Can a stronger player offer an approximate count?
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