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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #141 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:45 am 
Oza
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For Araban and observers.
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You can't keep both the corner territory and the side territory in this case. Why not? Because there is just too much space on the side, and the shimari, as solid as it may look, still has enough aji. So if I can't keep both, what should I strive to keep? In this case I think the side is more important because White has pretty strong groups both below and to the left. If I let him have the side, R10 will be Image.

I'd also like to throw out that this is a probe commonly seen in pro openings...but a lot of people who play it really don't understand it (you can tell by their follow-up). I'm not saying this applies for my opponent, but for kyu players who go over pro games and monkey-see-monkey-do their moves. That's a pitfall of analyzing pro games carelessly.



So is the idea of the probe to see whether black prefers the side or the corner? Since Black 47 indicates a preference for the side, what is the logical follow-up? Since Araban wrote "you can't keep both the corner territory and the side in this case..." my kyu mind says "take the corner!" Perhaps this is wrong at the moment because the corner, if it lives at all, would be tiny. Magicwand responded to Black 47 with M17. This seems like a good move, opting for the biggest area on the board (the top) but it leaves the corner undecided. What makes M17 the correct answer to Black 47? And what if black had decided otherwise, i.e., for the corner, by playing a hane at s17 or s15? Would that mean that white should go for the side by attacking r10?

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #142 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:01 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 0 . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


first totally unexpected move..
at first sight it look like a mistake but after careful analysis it make sense.
very good move by sol and shame on me for not expecting it.
i need to think about my next move (too many choices or not).
i think i have to play top but where?
i have considered 3 other points on top. b,c,d

"aji at 'a' is bothering me very much.
i hope he makes his move so i dont have to worry about that aji"

this is how i think right now. but can you feel that?
i am sure my opponent knows that aji is bothering me.
that is why he is not finalize the shape of that aji.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . B O . d . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . b . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

This post by Magicwand was liked by: Kirby
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #143 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:17 am 
Tengen
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
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DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
i hate playing moves like :w50: but could not think of other moves that is better.
i had sente and gave right back to my opponent for boundary playing.
every move should have multi purpose..but move :w50: look so boring.
i am not saying it is wrong move. it might be a move professional players might choose but i dont like it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 0 . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline lesenv
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #144 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:54 am 
Dies with sente

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As Joaz already said, keep the quality of your comments, they really help a lot.
I'm enjoying this game very much, thanks to both Magicwand and Araban!
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Offline Phelan
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #145 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:58 am 
Gosei
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My meme-fu is failing me. What does Image mean?

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a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go
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Offline feather
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #146 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:16 am 
Beginner

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Phelan wrote:
My meme-fu is failing me. What does Image mean?



Last edited by feather on Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
This post by feather was liked by: Phelan
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #147 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:16 am 
Lives in sente
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daal wrote:
For Araban and observers.
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You can't keep both the corner territory and the side territory in this case. Why not? Because there is just too much space on the side, and the shimari, as solid as it may look, still has enough aji. So if I can't keep both, what should I strive to keep? In this case I think the side is more important because White has pretty strong groups both below and to the left. If I let him have the side, R10 will be Image.

I'd also like to throw out that this is a probe commonly seen in pro openings...but a lot of people who play it really don't understand it (you can tell by their follow-up). I'm not saying this applies for my opponent, but for kyu players who go over pro games and monkey-see-monkey-do their moves. That's a pitfall of analyzing pro games carelessly.



So is the idea of the probe to see whether black prefers the side or the corner? Since Black 47 indicates a preference for the side, what is the logical follow-up? Since Araban wrote "you can't keep both the corner territory and the side in this case..." my kyu mind says "take the corner!" Perhaps this is wrong at the moment because the corner, if it lives at all, would be tiny. Magicwand responded to Black 47 with M17. This seems like a good move, opting for the biggest area on the board (the top) but it leaves the corner undecided. What makes M17 the correct answer to Black 47? And what if black had decided otherwise, i.e., for the corner, by playing a hane at s17 or s15? Would that mean that white should go for the side by attacking r10?


Obs.
Ok, here's the thing.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White plays here now because he knows that black can't defend the corner at the moment, like this (but maybe black can defend the corner if white plays here later, because he's thicker on the side or white's weak group comes under attack and can't attack his side very hard or something like that)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . 5 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 4 X O 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

because now the black stone there comes under attack. So black must play r15 like he did, which loses points in the endgame, because white can play this sequence later (or black has to spend a move to kill the aji)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 8 . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X 3 2 . 6 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and white's probe was sente anyway, so white essentially got 15 / 2 = 7.5 points for free here. It is important (and this mistake is common among kyus and persists into the low dans) that white does not play out the endgame sequence immediately, because it's small and gote and black gets quite thick.

This post by Shaddy was liked by 4 people: Chew Terr, daal, jts, lesenv
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Offline Harleqin
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #148 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:22 am 
Lives in sente
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Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 8 . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X 3 2 . 6 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Observers:
It should be mentioned that :b53: is an endgame mistake that loses two points. :geek:

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.
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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #149 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:05 am 
Gosei
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Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After he invested another move at the top, the time is ripe for me to exploit corner aji. There is little I can do on the side after K16, so the corner is inevitable. The main goal is to make W overconcentrated on top. I think there is enough aji for me to live in here, although it'll be a bit cramped. I'm not very concerned about S16 just yet, I think we both realize he has the privilege of living in the upper-right corner.


To daal:
Did Shaddy already answer your question, or would you still like my feedback?
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #150 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:35 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i think there is only one move.
i still think i am up but very close..endgame will decide this game.

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #151 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:36 am 
Oza
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Harleqin wrote:
Observers:
It should be mentioned that :b53: is an endgame mistake that loses two points. :geek:


Why? I get that maybe it's aji keshi... is there a seki I'm not seeing?
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #152 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:50 am 
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jts wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
Observers:
It should be mentioned that :b53: is an endgame mistake that loses two points. :geek:


Why? I get that maybe it's aji keshi... is there a seki I'm not seeing?


If I recall correctly, you should descend on the other side in sente first, but I can't really remember :S
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #153 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:06 am 
Gosei
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It took me a second to figure out, but here's how I believe you should play, assuming a bit of black support on the outside (which is not unreasonable given that even if white decides to live in the corner early, you don't have to expend all your forcing moves until later in the game):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . 0 |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . B . . . X 3 2 . 6 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 5 7 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that any other move for :w8: is not guaranteed life. In particular, the push-out makes ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 O 5 . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . B . . . X X O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline unkx80
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #154 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:23 am 
Lives with ko

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For observers only.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So far nobody seemed to have mentioned the possibility for white to pull out like this, making a and b miai. Something to ponder about.

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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #155 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:37 pm 
Gosei
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Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

No need to second-guess myself here, and I think that's one of the pitfalls in Malkovich games. Because there are no time limits (kind of) and playing a move in a Malkovich game isn't as convenient as just clicking the mouse, often times one may feel pressured to over-analyze a situation and think too much over the simplest of moves (though for a lot of people their overall problem with their Go is thinking too little of their moves rather than too much).

Also I'm going to refrain from triggers for as long as possible.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #156 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:46 pm 
Tengen
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X 4 O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #157 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:48 pm 
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I am suprised that Araban played that move. It was also my first choice, but then I read this sequence. Does anybody know what he's planing (or where I went wrong?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc a, b miai to kill?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . b . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Edit: ninjaed.

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Offline yoyoma
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #158 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:46 pm 
Lives in gote

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Mnemonic wrote:
I am suprised that Araban played that move. It was also my first choice, but then I read this sequence. Does anybody know what he's planing (or where I went wrong?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc a, b miai to kill?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . b . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . c . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Edit: ninjaed.


In the real game whole board, similar to your diagram, there isn't much below the 13th line. ;-)

Black can run out if he jumps to c, and then white plays a.
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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #159 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:38 pm 
Oza
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Araban wrote:
To daal:
Did Shaddy already answer your question, or would you still like my feedback?


Shaddy's comments gave me plenty to think about. I assume that the kyu-type follow-up you were referring to would be to try to live in the corner right away, and that MW's response was pretty much what you were expecting

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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Post #160 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:08 pm 
Gosei
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Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 7 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've got to live right? Note how my move strives to live by eyeing the connection problem between D14 and C11. It's simple as that.
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