110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

EdLee · **#161**

Kirby,

Marcus · **#162**

Thinking time. How are you feeling about the game now, Kirby? It's definitely not the same game we were discussing earlier.

I have a few thoughts ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . f . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . d . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . a . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . c . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, lots of interesting points, some endgame and some not ... I think I'm going to try and evaluate the board, though ... maybe I'll count! Or, at least, count how much cash Kirby has already made off with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | S S S S S . . . . . . . . . . S S S S | $$ | S S S S O O . . . . . . . . . S S O O | $$ | S S S . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | S S S O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | S S S . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | S S . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S S | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , S S S | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | S S S S . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | S S S O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | S S S . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | S S S O . . . . . . . . . S S S O O S | $$ | S S S . . . . . . . . . . S S S S S S | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W has about 56 points in cash plus 6.5 komi. That's 62.5 points that I have to match ... and don't forget I'm assuming that I get to reduce as far as that 56 ... I haven't looked at potential ... gonna think hard here.

Kirby · **#163**

EdLee wrote:

Kirby,

Kirby · **#164**

I feel OK about the game, Marcus, as long as you agree not to get too many more points.

EdLee · **#165**

Kirby,

Kirby · **#166**

@EdLee

EdLee wrote:

I think either A or B, but not C.

Kirby wrote:

maybe it would have been fine to do even this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O 3 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var A $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X . X . . | $$. X X X O X O X . . . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var B $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O . 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

"Var B" is a good sequence sometimes, but I don't think that it's a good move here. If we play "Var C", we threaten to link up with the single stone, later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . W . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X 5 . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O 3 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

"Var B" makes things harder for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 4 . | $$. . X O O . O O 5 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

Above, if black does tenuki, the same move that was good for "Var C" doesn't work as well in "Var B":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C - black 6 is tenuki $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . W 8 . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X 7 . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 4 . | $$. . X O O . O O 5 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

The marked stone gets cut off. In "Var B", there is no such problem, unless black moves first in "Var C", in which case we get the same result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 4 . | $$. . X O O . O O 3 5 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

So I think that for the differentiating case, "Var C" is better than "Var B". The only exception to this might be if black simply played down:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X 4 . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O 3 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

In which case, "Var C" is pretty much the same as "Var A":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var A $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X . X 4 . | $$. X X X O X O X . . . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

I think that the move in "Var B" is a good one to remember, but I do not see a reason that "Var B" is better than "Var C" in this case. In fact, I think that "Var C" is better than "Var B", for the reason mentioned above. I'm actually inclined to prefer "Var C" to "Var A" as well if I am going to give up sente.

So I guess I don't see a reason that "Var C" is inferior in any real way, except for your stating it.

Quote:

Also, the difference between D and E (the game) is huge-- 20+ points??

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var D: tenuki $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X . X 3 . | $$. X X X O X O X . . . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Var E: The game $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X X X . . | $$. X X X O X O X W 3 . | $$. . X O O . O O 1 . . | $$. . . . . . . . 2 4 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

I agree that it's big. I thought breaking into the moyo was also big. It's possible that breaking into the moyo was not as big as I had thought, but it's hard for me to calculate the value of the sente that I got.

But if I should have responded locally, I'm still inclined to respond as in "Var C", above.

Kirby · **#167**

@EdLee

I suppose it could be argued that :w3:

, below, also threatens to connect, just as "Var C" did, above;

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var B $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . W . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X 5 . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 . . | $$. . X O O . O O . 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

So in that sense, both "Var C" and "Var B" allow for either the connection, or the following picture:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X X X . . | $$. X X X O X O X O X . | $$. . X O O . O O O O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

So in terms of board positions, we can compare this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var B $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X X X O . | $$. X X X O X O X O . . | $$. . X O O . O O . O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . W . . | $$. . . O X . X X X O . | $$. X X X O X O X O . . | $$. . X O O . O O O . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

considering this, I would say that "Var B" is, perhaps, better shape. But practically speaking, I cannot see a reason why "Var B" is better in this scenario.

There is also one other consideration to take into account. If we play "Var B", black will almost invariably play this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var B $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . W . . | $$. . . O X . X 2 X . . | $$. X X X O X O X 1 4 . | $$. . X O O . O O . 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

This takes away the opportunity to connect with the marked white stone.

But if we play "Var B", there is a chance that black will not respond, and white will get to connect. I guess a lot of that depends on if this is sente for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Var C $$. . . . . . X . . . . | $$. . . . X X . . O . . | $$. . . O X . X X X . . | $$. X X X O X O X O B . | $$. . X O O . O O O . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------[/go]

Because, with "Var B", the marked black move is definitely sente for black - so we cannot hope to connect.

So I suppose I cannot see a practical reason that "Var B" is better than "Var C", and a possible benefit of playing "Var C" to "Var B".

Marcus · **#168**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 3 . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · **#169**

Kirby · **#170**

By the way, Marcus. How do you feel about the game? I thought I'd return the question, since you asked me.

Marcus · **#171**

Kirby wrote:

By the way, Marcus. How do you feel about the game? I thought I'd return the question, since you asked me.

To be honest, I've put myself into an uncomfortable position here. I'm usually accused of taking too many territorial moves, and leave my opponent with too much outside influence ... ending poorly for me. As you can see, I've tried to play for more influence in this game. I feel like I've had some success early on in the game, but it's very clear that I have no idea what to do with influence. :mrgreen:

I still feel like I have some good moves to make ... but I feel about 10 points behind at the moment (assuming a decent amount of reduction in my favour; double that to 20 points and that's about where my "pessimist" estimate ends up).

Kirby · **#172**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Marcus · **#173**

Thinking ... also been sick w/ a nasty cold ... might be a day or two before I move ...

EdLee · **#174**

Marcus wrote:

also been sick w/ a nasty cold

Nasty indeed. :oops:

Marcus · **#175**

Cold almost gone, just a nagging cough left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . 5 X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Shaddy · **#176**

Observers:

Kirby · **#177**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 6 , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't say I'm not pleased with this reduction. I can't think of a way to have done it better. There may have been a way - I'd be happy to hear it from kibitzers.

In any case, I'm sure my stones will have no problem living, and black's points have been limited in the area. Life is pretty good.

I thought about playing this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , O W . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But it feels like the wrong direction:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . C C C 2 O 1 . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't like black taking the points in the marked area so easily.

So I will go in that direction myself. :-D

yithril · **#178**

Go Kirby!

Marcus · **#179**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . 7 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . X X . O . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · **#180**

110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

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