Posts: 902 Location: Fort Collins, CO Liked others: 319 Was liked: 287
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Universal go server handle: jeromie
My last move was made when I briefly had cell service while exploring the coast of Oregon, which was breathtakingly beautiful. I'm going to further explain my last two moves below, and also indicate a possible change in direction for my follow up.
I didn't know the joseki for this move, though I think I was pretty sure I'd seen the hand at some point. Still, knowing one move in a joseki sequence is dangerous if one can't follow up properly. I considered just about every hane, one point jump, extension, diagonal move, and knight's move around the Q5 stone. Most of them I dismissed rather quickly; the Ives I lingered on the longest were the R6 hane (which I played), the Q4 extension, and the contact play / knight's move at P3.
The Q4 extension didn't look good because after black R4 it's basically like black got to play hane at the head of my stones. I have to reinforce the shape or I risk being cut at Q6, and once I spend a move to do that the Q4 stone wouldn't serve much purpose.
The knight's move at P3 left white with stow stones that would be hard to connect after black's next move. Black's extra stone (since he played in the area first) seemed to be decisive in the fighting that would follow. I couldn't find a good continuation from this move.
The hane I played works because I really want an outer wall of influence to break up black's stones on the right side. Depending upon black's choices,, I feel I'm guaranteed a wall on right side OR a strong wall to help build the bottom. See the next section to see what I mean.
I think this move is necessary to maintain connection between my stones. It also helps to build the wall I want. I expect black to jump to O3, but if he doesn't I can play at P3 and get a great wall even if black tries to cut:
If black reinforces then I can start working on the right side. When I posted I said I would descend to S6. What I really want is the extension around R10, but I thought this move was necessary to protect against the clamp at S7. Now I'm not so sure, and I might make an immediate extension. Here is how things work out to the best of my reading:
I can connect at a and/or capture the marked stone in a ladder, leaving black with a weak group. I need to try a few more variations to make sure this works, but I think this will be better than giving up sente and letting black make the R10 extension.
On an unhidden note, it's interesting how easy it is to remember all the moves in this game (which is admittedly not very long yet) when I have a good reason for each of them. It's also fun to see what kind of variations I can read when not under time pressure! The challenge is to know when to stop thinking and just play what seems to be the best move.
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@jeromie
jeromie wrote:
This seems to work best with my previous move. Depending on black's next move I will either descend to s6 or attach at P3, building a wall on the right side or bottom. If my wall is on the right, I expect black to extend to r3. I'll probably play on the other side and start a fight.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you provide a diagram or two?
Hm, I don't see this move a lot (or ever?), so I'm not sure what he's up to. He's emphasizing center influence. Perhaps he's planning a moyo? I'll keep my eyes peeled for more cues as to the strategy behind this move. My move (black 11) still seems necessary despite it no longer being part of the joseki that I'm familiar with. It keeps me from being easily contained and limits his bottom left influence. I wonder where he'll play next.
Jeromie, it's good you do your own analysis behind your moves. It's also good to study the joseki (after this game).
The following is a bit more about . It has no effect on this lower right corner in this game, so you can read it now, or, you can also wait until after the game. It's entirely up to you.
The hane is one joseki move (but not the only one). It threatens the atari (a) next, which is very big. The (a) atari is big because afterwards, W can connect at (b) and the resulting shape is terrible for B. So, normally, B will reply to the hane.
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@jeromie:
You wrote a fair bit of analysis for the move you played for 10, but nothing about other moves. Did you consider anything else? A common piece of advice I give is to always consider at least 3 moves. It's often more productive to think a little about 3 moves than a lot about 1.
Posts: 902 Location: Fort Collins, CO Liked others: 319 Was liked: 287
Rank: AGA 3k
Universal go server handle: jeromie
@Uberdude:
I did think about Q4 and Q6. They seemed like dead ends, so I didn't write much. (And I'm mostly posting from devices without a real keyboard, so that was already a lot to write. ) Since I expected black to play that one point jump right away, I probably should have considered that move or something near it a little longer. Thanks for the advice; I'll try to write more about moves I dismissed in future posts.
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For Jeromie, after the game, or maybe much much later in the game.
jeromie wrote:
I did think about Q4 and Q6. They seemed like dead ends, so I didn't write much.
Turns out either Q4 or Q6 is joseki, but not in the game. Of course, Q4 for can lead to the avalanche josekis, which are quite the opposite of dead ends.
Still posting from my phone, so bear with me. I'm back to a computer tomorrow.
I have a feeling I messed up the joseki on my last move. I'm eager to look it up after the game. Still, I need to use the stones I have the best I can. This extension along the right side seems to use my outside stones to gain profit and make taking the big point on the right side worthwhile. I can deal with the s6 hane or the R7 clamp just fine.
Other moves I considered: R11 (I think this is too far.) S6 (makes a big endgame possibility, but looks bad after black R10) M3 (playing down here is intriguing, but if a fight starts my 3 stone group can get in trouble. This looks better after a base on the right.)
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Okay, White 12 seems reasonable enough, although slightly inconsistent. If jermoie was planning on making an extension along the right side he should have just followed the joseki. I suppose he might still be planning to emphasize the center, just after making a base for his group. . My original plan was to approach top left corner
I think I'll stick with my original plan of the corner approach and keep in mind the checking extension. Ideally I will keep sente so that I get to play both moves. Going to think about it some before I make my move, though. Some thoughts about the checking extension:
(Diagram below) If white gets to make another extension along the right side, his group becomes nice and wide and the top loses value for me since my extension to 'a' now has an easy invasion point at 'b'. However, in this line I can probably play black 3 to press white down on the top, but I'll have to look at the variations to see what the fighting looks like if white chooses to resist black 3.
(Diagram above) The checking extension allows me to set up a nice double wing formation. White gets to enclose a corner, but I get to extend and deny his corner its ideal extension. However, white 4 strengthens his group while renewing the threat of an invasion around 'a'
Decided to approach the empty corner. I was satisfied with the checking extension idea, but it allowed him to rapidly develop on the left side if he tenuki'ed on the right. We'll see how he responds to the approach. I anticipate a pincer.
I can't actually see the go diagram I posted. It just shows up as a hyperlink but only links to a blank page. Does anyone else have this problem? Anyone know how to resolve it?
Posts: 902 Location: Fort Collins, CO Liked others: 319 Was liked: 287
Rank: AGA 3k
Universal go server handle: jeromie
A few thoughts after my initial glance at this position:
I think this is a good move by my opponent. I really wanted that enclosure.
S6 in the lower right hand corner is very big (it leaves the monkey jump into the corner for the endgame, solidifies territory on the right, and means I can ignore a future play in that area of the board), but probably not big enough to ignore a play in the upper left. That means I'm back to choosing/deriving joseki.
I'll probably choose between a diagonal move to emphasize the top or a pincer to emphasize the left, though I know there are also other moves that can work. It will take me a little while to figure out the best direction for the corner.
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jeromie wrote:
A few thoughts after my initial glance at this position:
I think this is a good move by my opponent. I really wanted that enclosure.
S6 in the lower right hand corner is very big (it leaves the monkey jump into the corner for the endgame, solidifies territory on the right, and means I can ignore a future play in that area of the board), but probably not big enough to ignore a play in the upper left. That means I'm back to choosing/deriving joseki.
I'll probably choose between a diagonal move to emphasize the top or a pincer to emphasize the left, though I know there are also other moves that can work. It will take me a little while to figure out the best direction for the corner.
Because of the black stone at P17 in the shimari is on the 3rd line and closer than the bottom left, the top is clearly smaller than the left. So, white should look to emphasize the left over the top.
S6, being on the second line and not in a currently critical area for black, is gote. Black's corner would be in no immediate danger. If white feels the need to strengthen this group, should look to accomplish it in a different manner. R14, for example, expands the potential base of the group significantly and has a decent effect on the upper right shimari. It may be better to play out the top left first, though, as you don't want black to respond with a move on the top side that cramps the upper left more, or just tenuki and destroy a lot of white's potential in exchange for the not-so-big right side.
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