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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #21 Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:30 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . 4 . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I prefer the variation with solid connection. Otherwise, white can get an extra peep at E6 later, which may cause complications at the wrong time. White most likely replies at F2 (attach at F3 seems only second-best...) and gets 15 points. As mentioned before it will then be tricky to chose the next followup...

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #22 Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . 4 . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, let's see what my opponent does. I talked quite a bit about my feelings at this point in the previous tag. I considered playing tenuki here, but the result would be far worse. Black could lock me out of the bottom in sente and that is unacceptable. I still think this is my best move, even if I don't like what might happen next.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #23 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:54 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . 4 . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


A deep invasion doesn't look convincing:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 The invasion feels somewhat lonely...
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Another variation: Since the lower b stones are not yet a solid wall, the last w move is on a shape point and threatens a cut (at a). I would need to protect the cut in bad shape while w will live and neutralize a big part of my influence.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , a X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


If I play a purely defensive move, the w response around E9 or F9 would be really big

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | ? ? ? O ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Therefore, if the game would develop like the following, it should not be too bad. However I should keep in mind that I have identified (a) as a potentially weak spot (= a move where w can potentially play in sente), which may eventually need to be fixed.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #24 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:02 pm 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
I'm going to think about this next move overnight. :geek:

It is as I feared. :cry:

The question now is whether to tenuki or respond locally. Now that this situation is real, tenuki looks harder, but that could just be my own fears talking.

I need to think about this...

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #25 Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:58 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, this move took a lot of thought, but I think it's the one I need here. I'm glad I spent another day on it - I was going to tenuki last night.

There was a lot of considerations, but my final decision came as a result of a sort of tewari analysis. I asked the quesiton: if black had pincered instead of capping, would I tenuki?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . C . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The answer there was - no, I wouldn't. But, if I tenuki from here, a move like a pincer is likely to be the response. And then I don't have the option to jump out - or really fight well. I couldn't find a variation I liked following a pincer here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Marked stones are moves 11 and 12.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 3 4 8 . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X 7 0 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I suppose we might play something like this? But that looks really nice for black.

And I couldn't find any suitable punishment against black's 3-4 stone from a tenuki. 5-4 joseki just don't offer enough compensation. Especially when black has support stones on either side.

My last thought: looking at the position locally, I think this is a bit bettter for white. This move removes a fair amount of aji from my double-wing formation. That said, from a global perspective, I really like black's move. It seems to fit with all the stones black has already played - something I strive to do in my games. So while I may have had a slight win locally, I think black received just compensation on a global perspective.

The question now is: will black play some type of enclosure, or continue with a Chinese fuseki move like a, b, or c? Personally, I like either b or c here. We'll see what schawipp decides.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . c . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . b a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #26 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:51 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I hope, I hope. :)

Edit: Hmmm. It seems that that is his plan. ;)

Much later edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon May 11, 2015 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #27 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:13 am 
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Hi Bill,
Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
This :b1: keima was also my first feeling.
Globally, the :wc: - :b1: exchange seems good for :black: ?

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Post #28 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:07 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi Bill,


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee wrote:
This :b1: keima was also my first feeling.
Globally, the :wc: - :b1: exchange seems good for :black: ?


I think that it is a loss for Black. :wc: strengthens the White stone on the left side and builds a framework there. :b1: is also big, as it lies on the frontier of frameworks. But that is so only because of the effect of :wc:. I also think that :bc: should have pincered, to make use of his thickness. IMO, Black just blew the lead.

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon May 11, 2015 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #29 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:16 am 
Honinbo
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Hi Bill,
Thanks. I cannot evaluate it. :)

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Post #30 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:23 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
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EdLee wrote:
Hi Bill,
Thanks. I cannot evaluate it. :)


Like I can? ;)

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon May 11, 2015 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #31 Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:16 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Yesterday I was on a birthday party and there was no time for go left...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]



The game reached a critical point. If I continue building my brittle and doubtful zone of influence at (a), white replies at (b). In this case the last chance of an invasion at (c) is more or less gone. White has 3x10 = 30 points in the three upper left rows and will most likely get at least another 20 points at upper side. With the 15 points of the lower left corner plus komi this is 71.5 points. On the other hand, I also have potential for points: If I play (d) I can get also 30 points if I get (e) lateron, further the point (f) would work well. I can secure about another 20 points if I play (g). Together that would make about 50 points. In this case, the question will be, whether I can catch up by 20 points or more in the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . f . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . # . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . # # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O # . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The idea of making more than 20 points with my influence doesn't feel convincing as it should in general be rather used for fighting. Therefore the invasion point (c) becomes interesting. With my last move I strengthened white in the area below, so I should have probably played this one move earlier, however I was not sure about that due to my weakish formation at the lower side. The invasion (c) also seems to benefit from the formation of the marked stones so IMHO it's still not too late.

So let's look at some possible variations after (c)...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 9 . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 8 X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


If white responds in a kind of standard way, he would need to connect at :w8: otherwise the lower stones just get cut off and can not do much due to the C6/D6/D5 formation. With :b9: I can live easily, and 30 w points are destroyed. In this variation it would get very hard for w to catch up.

Let's look what could happen if w kicks from the lower side:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 8 a c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 5 O d 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Jumping out with :w4: does not work, after the atari :w8: and :b9:, (a) and connecting at (b) are miai. The same applies if w plays the diagonal move (c) instead of :w4:. Thus, it is likely that w plays the nobi (d) instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 5 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


and...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O b . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . c O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


As the way to the right side is open, it is unlikely that my group will die. It would be a kind of running battle, since also the w group is split and feels slightly heavy. The game would become more messy now, but I anyway feel more comfortable in messy games compared to building contests... A final aspect might be that if w plays (a) to help his group I found that a reply on (b) is sente against the corner (c). A very final aspect: IMHO there is a proverb saying something like "the first who invades will lose", however in my practical games so far this proverb seemed to have not very high significance... ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #32 Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:08 pm 
Lives in gote

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Well, this is my first Malkovich game and it's only a few moves old. However it already told me how to not play go... :scratch:

- At :b9: I should have approached the upper left corner, probably at C14. The white corner enclosure together with K16 is a quite optimal constellation; thus an approach at upper left was urgent.

- When I want to invade at C13, I shouldn't play :b19: before. Of course I was afraid driving white into the center, however I anyway shouldn't want to make territory with my influence...

Now, with C9 and D17 in place the invasion feels quite tough. moyoaji is probably elaborating a failsafe sequence for a clean kill - and I wouldn't be too surprised if such sequence exists. The fact that I feel urged to play such invasion shows, that there already went something wrong in the game (see above).

Up to now, I think that there is a residual chance for a life in ko. If that should really work, then :w20: would probably have been better placed at C12 instead of D11. Anyway, I've put some possible variations in an SGF. It would be very interesting to find out about my blind spots later. :geek:


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Post #33 Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:39 am 
Lives in sente
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It's alright. I haven't had much time this week what with the holidays and all. I may not be able to post another reply again until after this weekend, but I'll try to make some time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This move was unexpected. I didn't realize black felt I was the one getting too much on this board. A common problem in go - our opponent is always getting too much.

I considered kicks on either side, or jumping out to F11, but only briefly. I'm a big believer in sticking to the fundamentals outlined in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go. Keeping your stones connected is fundamental to go, so I will do just that. My opponent will probably be able to live here, but I will get a wall on the outside that should help to solidify my claim on the top and will help me reduce black's center.

I want sente now to invade the left.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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Post #34 Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:32 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
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Rank: EGF 4k
I wish you a nice Christmas. No problem with delayed reply - no need to hurry...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


As planned before. I was also thinking what would happen if white kicked at c12 instead. In this case, the support from the lower black stones would be very limited. However black could extend at d13 and either run further away or slip to b16. In both
cases it seems as if black could live without the lower supporting stones.

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Post #35 Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:26 am 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
schawipp wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


As planned before. I was also thinking what would happen if white kicked at c12 instead. In this case, the support from the lower black stones would be very limited. However black could extend at d13 and either run further away or slip to b16. In both
cases it seems as if black could live without the lower supporting stones.


My sense is that white is happy to let black live here early on, especially in gote, since the game is looking like one with big moyos, and the result will give white central strength and sente to deal with black's larger one, at the cost of some minor side territory. With the likely territory in the lower left corner, white can clearly allow black to catch up a bit in territory to ruin black's potential while building his own.

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Post #36 Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:50 am 
Lives in sente
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I was able to find some time today, thankfully. Still going to be busy the next few days, but I had to do some work on my computer and I figured I'd check the forums.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


My goal again is to stay solid, get a wall, and have black live in gote. If I can find some way to kill black, so be it - this would be a lot of territory if I also have the outside.

If white extends in this direction again, I intend to connect solidly at the star point. I considered playing the hane to make a tiger's mouth shape, but I didn't like the result of black pushing through - I'm just not strong enough here yet.

The wall I am getting, however, looks quite nice. The top side has much more potential now, and a move like O14/15 will now be a fantastic spot to hit at the edge of our two moyos.

Also, for those wondering, the work on my computer was installing some of my Christmas gifts - a new mouse and speakers. :tmbup:

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #37 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:43 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
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Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I think I have seen a response like C15 more often and it is probably a kind of "standard response", however I try to make use of my helping stones instead. If white blocks the corner direction there is one variation where I can connect with ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 O 9 X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 6 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black can also play :b29: instead of :b27: first, however this seems to yield the same result.

In the final position, I have the option to continue as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 7 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 6 X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Now, black can live in a kind of double-ko (either live at the top or connect at bottom).

If :w26: blocks at the bottom side instead I can still play C15 but will be already one stone "longer".

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #38 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:50 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
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Liked others: 143
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Staying solid. No weaknesses. I expect black to jump with a knight's move toward the top. If he extends toward the top, I will probably extend down toward the side. Four stones is plenty strong to resist a cut.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #39 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:06 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
I wish you a happy new year! I hope I could respond more regularly again within the next days...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't expect :w26:; on the other hand, after e.g. :w26: on C10, which seems more tough against the invasion, there are some variations where a possible cut on D10 can become relevant.

There is still plenty of potential for me to mess it up:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 If b 'bumps' at C10, white can ignore the cut...
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 O 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


My move aims to connect with my outside group ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 b is easily connected this way
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


... otherwise, if w blocks the connection, it should be possible to get a living group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 7 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O 8 X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This should be alive, and w still has to worry, whether he needs to fix (a).

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #40 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:31 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2495
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
schawipp wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 7 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O 8 X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This should be alive, and w still has to worry, whether he needs to fix (a).

The only issue with this assessment is that it's a terrible result for black to get, say, 8 points at best in exchange for giving white a huge wall in sente and helping white solidify at least 8 points in the upper left. If white needs to deal with the aji around A, I think it's best dealt with proactively, by a nice big moyo-expanding extension from white's wall. I suspect that white can ignore it altogether, however. If black cuts, white will just push the weak black group to run, making territory up top and getting stronger in the center at the same time.

I get the impression that black has been thinking about destroying a side he felt white was about to get due to his previous play, to give white "nothing" there without considering the global implications. Of course, in any invasion that lives, you are making a trade, taking one area to give something else. It's important that you not invade without considering whether your opponent's position will be better or worse after you live in gote and probably small.

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