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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #21 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:06 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 355
Liked others: 52
Was liked: 43
Rank: AGA 2d
IGS: ethanb
schilds wrote:
ethanb wrote:
...
This is not joseki (if you overlay the "accepted sequence" meaning with "even result" as is common.) White's nobi is a trick play, and this is a simple refutation. But it's still not the best refutation.
...

Except that your variation differs starting with a white move at b16 instead of c17.


You're right, I think I said that backward - the variation Yithril showed is better for Black than this variation (in other words cutting at C17 to be squeezed is a mistake.)

(edited to remove schilds variation that he removed in his post)


Last edited by ethanb on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #22 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:21 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 355
Liked others: 52
Was liked: 43
Rank: AGA 2d
IGS: ethanb
schilds wrote:
ethanb wrote:
...
This is not joseki (if you overlay the "accepted sequence" meaning with "even result" as is common.) White's nobi is a trick play, and this is a simple refutation. But it's still not the best refutation.
...

Except that your variation differs starting with a white move at b16 instead of c17.


Belay my last comment! Black ending in gote is better for white! The order is wrong! Black has to pull out first!!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white captures two stones in the corner he gets sealed in and cannot escape. So he will follow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O 2 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . X O X 1 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After this white doesn't have enough liberties to cut:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 8 4 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 3 2 X O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X 1 X O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X 2 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 9 X X O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Because of the sacrifice stones, black can make a solid eye in the corner and win 3/2 liberties. So White has to capture the stones on top and black gets a much larger territory on the left.

Therefore it will become like the sequence I showed earlier - best for both.


Last edited by ethanb on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline schilds
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #23 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:28 am 
Dies with sente
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ethanb wrote:
schilds wrote:
ethanb wrote:
...
This is not joseki (if you overlay the "accepted sequence" meaning with "even result" as is common.) White's nobi is a trick play, and this is a simple refutation. But it's still not the best refutation.
...

Except that your variation differs starting with a white move at b16 instead of c17.


You're right, I think I said that backward - the variation Yithril showed is better for Black than this variation (in other words cutting at C17 to be squeezed is a mistake.)

Quote:
Would a double hane at g18 and then a squeeze change anything?


Er, you mean this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 3 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 6 X O X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 W W X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Haha, yes, except you're faster than my editing ;). When I loaded up the sgf file, I forgot to play the first move (the cut), so I was playing as if white passed ;). So my comment which you quoted (and I apparently edited out only after) makes no sense, you can ignore it.

[edit] Arghgrg, tags all messed up ...

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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #24 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:39 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 350
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Rank: 4 dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Coming out with 5 first is not good because 6 is a forcing move (if Black ignores there is a ladder) and now I just capture the corner and Black can have fun crawling out and letting me have a big wall towards the cetner.

_________________
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Offline ethanb
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #25 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:49 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 355
Liked others: 52
Was liked: 43
Rank: AGA 2d
IGS: ethanb
yithril wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Coming out with 5 first is not good because 6 is a forcing move (if Black ignores there is a ladder) and now I just capture the corner and Black can have fun crawling out and letting me have a big wall towards the cetner.


Good timing for this comment. :)

Hmm, haven't seen this before. I know (I've been shown by an 8 dan and a 6 dan anyway) that the final shape from my first sequence is correct, whether I'm right about black's order of moves or not. :)

But I'm not 100% sure about this white 6, as this black 7 appears to break the ladder as well...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 2 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O X 5 . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But the central fight can get REALLY complicated so considering that black is taking three stones anyway, it may be that accepting the squeeze yithril showed is the best strategy anyway. :)


Last edited by ethanb on Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #26 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:53 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
be immersed
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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #27 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:57 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #28 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:01 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So far so good... I wonder if this is an even result so far.

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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #29 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:11 am 
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ethanb wrote:
yithril wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 5 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Coming out with 5 first is not good because 6 is a forcing move (if Black ignores there is a ladder) and now I just capture the corner and Black can have fun crawling out and letting me have a big wall towards the cetner.


Good timing for this comment. :)

Hmm, haven't seen this before. I know (I've been shown by an 8 dan and a 6 dan anyway) that the final shape from my first sequence is correct, whether I'm right about black's order of moves or not. :)

But I'm not 100% sure about this white 6, as this black 7 appears to break the ladder as well...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 3 2 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O X 5 . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But the central fight can get REALLY complicated so considering that black is taking three stones anyway, it may be that accepting the squeeze yithril showed is the best strategy anyway. :)
X O X . . . . . . . . . . . .

I'm not saying your sequence is wrong, I'm just saying be careful of the order of moves. Secondly the sequence I learned I learned from two professionals, but to be perfectly honest, that doesn't mean much. I don't care about a sequence being "correct" at all. I just care about finding better moves. Worrying if something is absolutely correct is a straightjacket.


I'm new to forums so bear with me if I screw up this quoting stuff :)

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #30 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:54 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think you quoted somebody else instead of making a new diagram, but I assume that you meant the move that I copied over in the diagram above, yithril.

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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #31 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:55 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #32 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:37 am 
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I need to think about this for a little bit...

I have a feeling that I messed up somewhere. I don't think I've lost all three stones, yet, but I'll need to be a bit careful here...

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #33 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:57 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was afraid of the following sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 5 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 6 X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but I think that I can play at "a" after this, and get the four white stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 O O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 6 1 2 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 O O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 3 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


…

Anyway, I don't know exactly how white will play, but I think I can escape, and be OK…

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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #34 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:40 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 9 O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's hope you read this one out right Kirby :)

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #35 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:01 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmm, I wonder what he means by that... I hope I haven't messed up...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #36 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:17 am 
Judan
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I think that Kirby is screwed.

:b1: is forced, as is :b3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ | 3 X . 2 . . . . .
$$ | O O X X O O . . .
$$ | 1 X O X O X . . .
$$ | . . O O X O . O .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


...then white throws in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ | X X . O . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X X O O . . .
$$ | X X O X O X . . .
$$ | . . O O X O . O .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


...:b5: is forced, then white plays :w6::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ | X X . O 6 . . . .
$$ | 5 . X X O O . . .
$$ | X X O X O X . . .
$$ | . . O O X O . O .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


...then any move by black to connect down the side loses:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ | X X 8 O O . . . .
$$ | X 9 X X O O . . .
$$ | X X O X O X . . .
$$ | . 0 O O X O . O .
$$ | . 7 . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


...so the only other way to resist is with :b7: like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------
$$ | X X 7 O O . . . .
$$ | X . X X O O . . .
$$ | X X O X O X . . .
$$ | . 8 O O X O . O .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


...which ends badly for black too.

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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #37 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:27 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 350
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 33
Rank: 4 dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #38 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:39 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Has Captured: B - 2, W - 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
be immersed
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Offline yithril
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #39 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:41 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 350
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 33
Rank: 4 dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Has Captured: B - 2, W - 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game
Post #40 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:45 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Has Captured: B - 3, W - 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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