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| 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3704 |
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| Author: | jts [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
What's a july zerg? |
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| Author: | Aphelion [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
This is July: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lM4qlbTos8 This is also July: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsYcDNiJ4ic |
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| Author: | jts [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
:-? That's mean... |
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| Author: | Violence [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
I've been debating between this move and checking the group... but I think this is better... I feel that if I check the group, whatever stone I leave behind will just get attacked later on. Because he has Tengen, I think I want to grab potential in another corner first. |
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| Author: | NeoNemesis [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
I'm going to try to kill that thickness. Point of this game is to kill everything. This is like trying to kill an ultralisk with banelings, but I will do it. |
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| Author: | Violence [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
I think if I were playing over the board, I would instinctively play the other side, but NeoNemesis usually manages to kill things like my "strong" group in the lower right. I think I'll let him have a position here, my goal is to just try and make tengen less effective. |
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| Author: | emerus [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
Isn't this move a mistake? Allowing W easy life because of a forcing move at A? What does B gain in return? |
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| Author: | NeoNemesis [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
Seems too hard to attack the thick group. idea here is either to reinforce that stone or to take corner. It was between this move and 1 space below. I like this one more because if I take corner, he'll have to spend another move to capture the stone and it still has some aji. Otherwise, I can reforce it even better depending on which way he hanes
At this point, black doesn't seem like he'd be in the mood to spend another move, maybe either jump out with the 3 stones or something.
I can reinforce my stone stronger this way compared with:
black extension at E4 would be painful later i feel because there's aji at H4 ish, maybe gaining thickness in sente |
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| Author: | Violence [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
Another NeoNemesis-y move... I think I'll try to pressure the lone stone, he'll take more territory, I think I have to be mindful about the influence territory balance now. Hopefully, I can get something out of this attack. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
@Violence: Can you elaborate on this choice of direction:
? The group is secure, but it feels slightly over-concentrated to me. |
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| Author: | Violence [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
[Hide]
Aside from the weaknesses at a and b, this fight makes me uncomfortable... With tengen, I feel like one slip up will be too costly.
Again, this group feels strong, but it's very easy to grab forcing moves to make it uncomfortable. I don't even have the lower left corner, and if the middle bottom group gets stronger, I have invasion points that NeoNemesis will be more than happy to stab me in. I wanted to play honte so that when I fight, I won't have a liability, and I can fight on my own terms, which is what I intend to do by attacking this one stone. |
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| Author: | NeoNemesis [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
see previous comment |
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| Author: | Violence [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
I think he'll try to make a shape that makes it hard for me to develop thickness. Without decent height, it becomes difficult to attack this one stone.
The cap is quite interesting too. I think cutting inward doesn't feel right... this result isn't what I'm looking for.
But after here, I think I like the fighting chances of black. Because I added a move, I can now use the added strength of my marked stone to fight more severely, without having to worry about suddenly coming under counterattack. A lot of times, things are deceptively strong or weak. Even though the group on the right side was the result of a 3/3 invasion, so the first instinct of players is to consider it as strong, it can easily become a liability if fighting takes place nearby. With the added move, I feel a lot more comfortable.
Another more steady way, I think this gives him more opportunities to outplay and outfight me, I want to minimize that. He has much more room for aji and tricks, not to mention that I have to push from behind twice to give him more territory in that way. I think the cap is an inevitable move. Hopefully I can get something good out of it.
Another move that is worth looking at, I think.
The bottom side becomes very overconcentrated if I go along with his plan, and my group ends up just being a lump of unimportant crap lying around the board. Definitely not what I want.
This fight gets really complicated too. Maybe...
I've strengthened his corner, but I think this fight looks a lot better for me now. The lower side is still not as efficient as I'd like though, with his two corners, he gets a decent amount of territory this way, and I have a good feeling that white will get a good amount of influence and the first move in the top right. Maybe this is unavoidable.
All in all, an interesting situation. I guess this is one of the reason why I'm weak, I can't instantly see the correct way to attack this stone perfectly. It's not intuitive, and my meager reading doesn't really get me anywhere. I guess I'll just use my best guesses and hope for the best here. And yeah, I did just post a lengthy discussion of diagrams, mostly because unlike the Big Brother Malkoviches, and my games with Magicwand, which were for fun(and I guess pride, with Magicwand), I am fully aware that NeoNemesis is probably going to murder me without much trouble, and I so I might as well try to learn what I can. So that's my two cents on this position.
Clearly, he'll do this just to mess with me though. |
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| Author: | NeoNemesis [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
See last last comment |
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| Author: | Jedo [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
to violence and others: What do you think about this:
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
Observers: I would think about playing like this:
On the other hand, I would have blocked from the corner anyway. White may be able to get a solid group on the lower side, but Black would not have any weak groups either---and he would have the corner. |
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| Author: | Puppycakes [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
Jedo wrote: to violence and others: What do you think about this:
That's what I would have played. I think that Violence is too worried about Neonemesis' reading ability. I mean, not that Neonemesis doesn't deserve the respect. I believe that he does, but I don't like changing how you'd play based off of the fear of what your opponent might do. Instead, read to the best of your ability and fight it out and then if you get a lead, maybe you can play a bit more solid. But Violence's play looks strangely fearful. My ego always tell me to treat my opponent like an equal and make them prove their strength and then when they punishe you for your mistakes, you might lose, but you'll understand what can happen better and you'll learn from the situation. |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
Jedo wrote: to violence and others: What do you think about this:
Disclaimer: my opinion, which may or may not be off from tiredness and a lack of recent games. My eyes don't like it. Black's given away his base for an incomplete corner that's going to get invaded later and a white group he can't attack very strongly because of tengen. Even if Black manages to build thickness, the white group on the right won't be an easy target either. I feel like Violence's move is the only move- if you want to fight, you should be thick first, the reading ability of your opponent doesn't matter. Puppycakes wrote: That's what I would have played. I think that Violence is too worried about Neonemesis' reading ability. I mean, not that Neonemesis doesn't deserve the respect. I believe that he does, but I don't like changing how you'd play based off of the fear of what your opponent might do. Instead, read to the best of your ability and fight it out and then if you get a lead, maybe you can play a bit more solid. But Violence's play looks strangely fearful. My ego always tell me to treat my opponent like an equal and make them prove their strength and then when they punishe you for your mistakes, you might lose, but you'll understand what can happen better and you'll learn from the situation. What you see as fear, I see as thick play. Good things (read: advantages in fighting) come to those who play solid. |
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| Author: | CSamurai [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
Jedo wrote: to violence and others: What do you think about this:
I have to agree with Shaddy here. For one, an exploitable, but not immediate weakness rests here..
This fight doesn't favour black, as white is mostly settled all over. Black likely won't die, but he won't gain much out of this fight, where as white will push the game in his direction. This is exactly the sort of fight I start all the time as black, but, observing, I can confidently say, there's not much profit in 4. I recently heard a strong go player at my club say 'Don't throw away territory for aji.' It's good advice, that I've been trying to follow more clearly. In giving up the base here, black's signing on for very little material, gain, and some eventual possible aji. I think Violence's move was correct. |
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| Author: | Puppycakes [ Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 114: Violence vs NeoNemesis |
I wasn't saying that Violence's move is bad really. I mean, I think that I prefer something else in the position, but I was more referring to the tone of his posts. He's making it sounds like he's terrified of what's going to happen in this game which is quite different than what I'd expect. Anyhow, I don't like blacks' three stones right now. To me, I think that white's lone stone looks like it has too much aji and his three black stones are too heavy. I think that Harleqin's suggestion of the 3-3 invasion looks promising in some ways. I mean, right now black has sente, but I feel that the 3-3 invasion would be too early right now. |
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