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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #21 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:09 pm 
Gosei
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Having made a supporting enclosure, black is willing to 'fight' on top (ie allowing white to take the game :b9: ). Jumping back instead is a normal idea- when the pincer fight is going to be good for white. Ergo, I feel the game move was a little submissive.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit;
(I think after a white high approach bottom left, I prefer white despite black's double wing in the top right)
Actually, it's an interesting situation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 1 . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems like black can make it difficult for white to use the thickness.

Edit;
Leaving a & b as good points; and white needs to stop black from taking/guarding both. (Just placing my extremely fanciful bets).

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Last edited by Loons on Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Sur
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #22 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:35 pm 
Lives with ko

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How many times will he tenuki there? It's close to midnight here and I need to sleep on this. I like my position better, but it will be hard to punish his moves.
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #23 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:28 pm 
Lives in sente

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Universal go server handle: speedchase
Chew Terr wrote:
speedchase wrote:
We are going to have to use a circle to show last move until someone explains to me how to do numbers above 10.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The 'mx' in the diagram lets you do this. 'x' is the number you want to start counting from. This hidden diagram demonstrates.


Thank you very much
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #24 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:25 pm 
Honinbo
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Sur,
Sur wrote:
First mistake is tenuki from F17 stone, this is something you can do in handicap game, but not in even game against stronger opponent.
Actually, one can tenuki as much as one wants, as long as it works. Also, you and speedchase are similar levels.
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Offline Sur
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #25 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:31 am 
Lives with ko

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EdLee:

Of course he can, but it doesn't look like working to me -> I consider it a mistake. I need to come up with a good punishment for it to take effect and this may proof difficult (and I'll probably mess up). But do you really want to say that his play is standard? Then I would like to see some reference.
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Offline Sur
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #26 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:10 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 128
Location: Czech republic
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 2 . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you don't know what to do, TENUKI! :-P I'm blitzing this way too much :-(
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #27 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:29 am 
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Hmm, This is the first time I've been unsure what to do. I have to go now I'll think about it later.
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #28 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:10 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 800
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Rank: AGA 2kyu
Universal go server handle: speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well I finally decided. These are the moves i considered:



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . d . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



A is a joseki but if we play joseki then we wind up with this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O 4 . . . 6 . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w4: , :w6: , and :wc: work very well together and I did not want to give my opponent this formation even though i get sente to approach the bottom.

for b I am afraid of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , W . . . . 2 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this point the stone :wc: is not important for black, however it cannot be taken easily by white. Black also has nice development

The main reason I avoided d was because I don't know any joseki here, and I don't really want to look in a dictionary. I just felt the result was too unsure.

with my move at c i am going for the above sequence

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here I am settled on both sides, and white does not have too much influence.

These would also be ok with me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 4 . . 1 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 4 . . 1 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Sur
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #29 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:39 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 128
Location: Czech republic
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I hate to be pincered, so I'm a little pissed right now and I'm going to fight him just because I want to.
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Offline Puppycakes
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #30 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:30 pm 
Lives with ko

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I'd say fight him because he has a supporting stone in the bottom right. I play much worse when i'm in an angry or upset mood.
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #31 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:02 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 800
Liked others: 141
Was liked: 123
Rank: AGA 2kyu
Universal go server handle: speedchase
Sorry for a bit of a delay

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm this is kinda tricky, i have two sorta weak groups. my idea was to settle the one on the right, because I think the one in the corner can be settled easily either on the left side or in the corner
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 3. X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or maybe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


either way , I hope i can get some attacking in before he settles, but with the second variation that doesn't seem too likely because he can settle in the corner. I still think I am a bit ahead.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #32 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:12 am 
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Sur,
Sur wrote:
I hate to be pincered, so I'm a little pissed right now
But you played :w12: KNOWING B could pincer you. Are you saying you hate your own choice of :w12: ?
If you hate being pincered, then why play :w12: ? It makes no sense.

This post by EdLee was liked by: 1986
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Offline Sur
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #33 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:30 am 
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EdLee:

Pretty much any corner approach can be pincered. Are you saying I shouldn't play corner approaches? :-D You are crazy. I don't like playing white, I don't like my opponent playing overplays or invading into my influence where he shouldn't stand a chance. And I don't like many other things. It happens, I have to live with it and learn from it. Makes perfect sense to me. My dislike comes from inexperience, because I haven't played that many games and at my level opponents (and me) are still not using some techniques and many of them incorrectly. But I have to learn them, don't I? Your attitude, on the other hand, doesn't make any sense. Have none of your opponents played a move that got you into position you disliked or was uncomfortable with? It doesn't necessarily mean you should have played differently, now does it?


edit: Btw in my whole go career I've been pincered less than five times and used pincers as frequently :-P I think I have a right to be uncomfortable with them.


Last edited by Sur on Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Sur
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #34 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:03 am 
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You are playing more than fast enough :-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think he plays very greedy moves and this one will be punished by sealing him in the corner and giving me influence where I want it. I like my position better, but as I've already said, it will be quite difficult to actually take advantage of it. If I were and an observer of the game, I would bet on white, but playing him myself, it looks like a hard work.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #35 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:47 am 
Gosei
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Just because I enjoy weighing in on these things:

I think I can sort of understand where sur is coming from. Orthogonal corners are my crazy-thickness, my 4-4. Why did he pincer...?!

Of course, this was black's corner. He's going to get some good result.

Gamewise,

I am wondering if this is a sign that the low approach was still better, because it would have been good to be able to counterpincer a black pincer here.

Out of interest, I would have just played the 3-3 attachment before. Or a compelling reason to not play 15 at eg. c7.

And, the move has been played. I think 16 was great. Josekipedia seems to have something on it.

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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #36 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:19 am 
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Universal go server handle: speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this Lives.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This should be ok:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 3 . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This is a little uncomfortable, I thought it would be easier to live in the corner, but I think it will be ok. I may end up sacrificing part of the corner to escape.
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #37 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:31 am 
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It seems like black really hates his corner stone, given that he tenukis to help the pincer stone, and is now focused on making very small life in the corner instead of fighting against getting sealed in. Also, this peep makes a pincer against the two space extension more severe.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #38 Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:29 am 
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If you listen carefully, you can hear :b17: sobbing.

In addition to not helping the corner much and begging to be sealed in, it damages the two space extension on the outside.

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This post by daniel_the_smith was liked by: 1986
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Offline Sur
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #39 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:07 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 128
Location: Czech republic
Liked others: 0
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure this is punishment enough, but I want to put some pressure on the G3 group while building influence on the other side. Looks like aji keshi and thank you move. If he only tries to live in the corner now (and his play suggests it), he may very well die. This is open book game and he didn't play any joseki so far, quite confusing.
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Offline speedchase
 Post subject: Re: 146- speedchase 8kyu versus sur 7k
Post #40 Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:18 pm 
Lives in sente

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Rank: AGA 2kyu
Universal go server handle: speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm scared i misread but I can't find a way for white to kill
Reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 1 X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 2 5 X O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is the best he can do. I can either take two stones or escape.

I have some homework to do so I'll post more reading If i get a chance. otherwise we will just have to wait and see what happens.

I am kinda curious what people are posting... don't worry I won't cheat.

I hope they aren't saying white can kill!
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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