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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Sur
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #22 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:15 am 
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Isn't just connecting better for black?
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Offline OtakuViking
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #23 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:23 am 
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Trigger thingy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X 6 O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #24 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:22 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure if this move is necessary or not, but I'm not taking any chances.

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #25 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:36 am 
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Hailthorn:
Quote:
I'm not sure if this move is necessary or not, but I'm not taking any chances.
Don't take that attitude. In a Malkovitch game, the way to do this is read as hard as you can to see whether it's necessary. Sometimes you'll be truly unable to tell, in which case you should post your diagrams and defend.

And then we'll tell you that you're wrong (if you're wrong). And you'll learn the most that way.

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Offline EdLee
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Post #26 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:28 am 
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Hailthorn,
I agree with hyperpape on this one. It's another story if you're playing 10-second
or 30-second blitz and you're about to run out of time so you must play something,
but that's not the case here. Part of this exercise is for us to read and analyze deeper,
perhaps much deeper, than in a real-time game, and show our variations.

As hyperpape said, sometimes you really don't know -- I've had my share of those moments
in my Malkovich games -- but here, for this local situation, you should show as many of
your variations as possible, and your assessments: life, death, seki, etc.
And if after all those variations, you still cannot tell, then, OK, say you don't know.

But playing a move like this without any variations at all,
it's not very different from the roulette. And you mentioned you wanted to make 1d
this year -- this is not showing the attitude or the work required toward that direction. :)
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Offline OtakuViking
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #27 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:42 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Wrong direction to atari for black I think. Now I will force him to commit to a capture or get a good result from capturing if he doesn't defend.
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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #28 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:53 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline hailthorn011
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #29 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:57 am 
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@ Hyperpape & Edlee

Okay, y'all win. If I'm unsure in situations like this, I'll play out variations from now on and display how incorrect my thought process is! Sure there's the off chance I'll get it right, but I guess we'll see about that. And you're right, my current attitude will not get me to 1d. I'm going to have to think about this some.

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Offline EdLee
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Post #30 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:15 am 
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(For beginners.) :b21: descend is bad habit/wrong shape. Correct is take:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline Ortho
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #31 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:25 pm 
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@Ed Lee
Can you please explain why? 21 seems to take more territory and threaten a later monkey jump.
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Offline OtakuViking
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #32 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Trigger thingy. Btw, copy my board and you can use numbers 4,5,6 etc.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #33 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:42 pm 
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@Ortho:
Because the white block will likely be sente sooner than a black move.


Mmm, I would tenuki white 21 here, though. Seems to just be a relatively large yose.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #34 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:31 pm 
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hailthorn, OtakuViking: the move numbers are probably off -- :w21: should be :w22:, etc.
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Offline OtakuViking
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #35 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Now that you mention it...:)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #36 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Ortho,
One reason is :w22: becomes sente (otherwise :b21: has no meaning),
and the :w22:- :b23: exchange is clearly good for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 1 2 . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If B simply took directly ( :b23: instead of :b21:), and W still played :w22:, it would not be sente.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #37 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Ortho,
So the correct move for W here is not the :w20: atari (a) in the game, but descend:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X O X a . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If B blocks on the outside with :b2:, we get the same bad result for B as in the game --
W gets :w3: and :w5: in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . 6 . . . .
$$ | . 4 1 2 3 . .
$$ | . X O X 5 . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
And if B blocks from the inside, B loses points...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . .
$$ | . X O X . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
...so both blocks are not good for B, which means B did something wrong earlier. Continued in the next post. :)
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Offline EdLee
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Post #38 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Ortho,
Continued from previous post:
OtakuViking wrote:
Wrong direction to atari for black I think.
OtakuViking was correct about :b19: -- see previous post why B could not get a good result after :b19:.
Correct atari here is from the 2nd line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If W replies (connects)...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
...then B gets a better result in the above than the other atari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 2 4 . . .
$$ | . X O 1 . . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #39 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Ortho,
Follow-up about the bad :b21: descend and the good capture :b1::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If W still descends to :w2:, B will not reply at (a) (which is the resulting shape in the game) --
B will ignore :w2:, as it is gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X a 2 . .
$$ | . X . X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
If W ataris with :w2: instead, it is still gote, and B will also ignore it:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 2 . . .
$$ | . X . X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
And if W ignores :b1:, then later B has the nice follow-up of :b3::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: tenuki
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . .
$$ | . X W X O . .
$$ | . X X O O . .
$$ | . X O O . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
On your question about B's monkey jump, B has no chance to play it, because of :w22:, as we saw in the game.
If any of this is still not clear, please say so. :)

This post by EdLee was liked by: Ortho
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: hailthorn [8k] vs. OtakuViking [2k] (Game #150)
Post #40 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:50 pm 
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If white extends the atari'd stone, Black will not extend, Black will play diagonal, which leaves a cutting point in the white wall.
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