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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:53 pm 
Dies in gote

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Rank: KGS 4 kyu
Nooooooooooooo :evil:
More spoilers I can't read :cry:

Maybe I should resign so that I can read them :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #22 Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:36 pm 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 147
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Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 9 8 6 . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 7 O 4 X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black connects underneath, I will cut with 9 to try to take a big corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 9 O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 8 O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O X O 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 4 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black can live in the corner if he wants, but w can harass the other black group then, so this should be acceptable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . X . O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess black can try to jump at (a) or invade at (b) aswell, but both allows w to create a stronger position and the bottom group probably will be cleanly killed, so I think w will gain like that.

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #23 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:12 am 
Dies in gote

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Rank: KGS 4 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok now I feel bad, even if it's what I expected... Now white can take the side and let black with a big dragon but I will have big forcing move @ a and b I think and this seems too good for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 6 4 . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 X 5 O 2 X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . b 7 3 B 1 a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or white can enclose black on the side and have great influence toward center with a or b ?
I don't know which move is better between 4, a and b... (a leave a lot of Aji, b let a forcing move for white... That's why at first look I prefer 4)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . a X 1 O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . b 4 2 B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #24 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:34 am 
Lives in sente
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The moves by black since he played the iron pillar have been really suspect, I think the 20 pt reverse komi is going to disappear way too fast.

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #25 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:42 am 
Lives with ko
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Liked others: 0
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Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black played as predicted, so let's take this time to check the aji and see if black pull something problematic here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 4 O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . X O O X X . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black goes for the corner, it seems he will get sente, but white profit it quite big, so I don't think white is in bad shape here. W also get some thickness in the center so I feel this is playable.

The other variation that can cause complications is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 4 . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . c O 2 O X X 5 X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . X O O X X . 7 8 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O 6 9 . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This variation would be very problematic since black gets to escape with (b) so both black gets both the corner and life with his bottom group. Now, white is very thick, and (c) is sente, so w can make a huge framework by playing around D11, so I think that even like this, white can still cope with the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #26 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:01 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 66
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Rank: KGS 4 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O B X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here is what I hesitated for... b and try to take corner, sacrificing some stones or a to connect all my stones and let white take the side... I'll go for 2nd options...
I feel like my reading ability is none :cry: ... Diagram play is hard for me :shock:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O a X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b X W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #27 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:28 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 147
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Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The sequence is forced now so I'll just play along with my earlier plan for now.

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #28 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:12 am 
Dies in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here is the following I think. I will then choose between a, b and c. I have to get sente at the end of this to minimize white influence by playing around x.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . x . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . c 2 X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . b X 1 O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 O X O a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #29 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:37 am 
Lives with ko
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Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X W O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All according to plan sofar. Later, some complications may arise if black proceed like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 a O 9 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 8 2 1 X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X W O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Playing (9) instead of (a) is a possibility, white can either just sacrifice one stone to build the outside or capture one stone to make profit while leaving the white center group vulnerable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 2 1 O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . b . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the safe way, but is it too slack? My feeling is that it is ok since black can connect at (b) anyway, so the group isn't really that much of a target for attack anyway.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . 2 O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Centre group looks thin, I think this is a bit dubious play by white.

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #30 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:07 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . B X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No comment on this one as everything's going according to my evil plan :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #31 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:08 am 
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Bring it on!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . W X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #32 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Damn... Not what I expected... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #33 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O B O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now I really feel bad :/ I'm going to lose a lot here...
I'm going to try to threaten the white X stones and keep the a move to connect to the X black stone...

But it's going to be hard... I feel like I should play somewhere else... And I'm sure I should have play more solid against a so much better player than me :D Fight is not a good idea !
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O B O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X P P X X . . . . . Z . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . P X P a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #34 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:54 pm 
Lives with ko
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:o

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmm, the move order is different but it seems that we can expect the variation analysed earlier:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 4 O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . X O O X X . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure if black has anything unforseen up his sleeve, otherwise this should work out well. What will black do next? He can secure the territory with a move around (a) but I doubt this will happen since it feels a little unambitious, approaching the upper corner at (b) seems most natural, but I guess (c) is more likely since there is a scare-factor involved in going in deep.

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #35 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:16 pm 
Gosei
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Kie,
Why do you say going in at 'b' feels most natural? I've always seen 'c' as the number-one choice for approaching a 5-3. What makes 'b' better than 'c'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 4 O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . X O O X X . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #36 Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:20 am 
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@Dusk:

If black play at 1, my feeling was that there's always a way for white to create a lot of energy in the centre and step by step create a massive position. The left side has a lot of aji at (a) and (b) so anything can happen there. So I think black need to get it together and play the deeper invasion which in my opinion is the good stuff. However, there is no reason to believe that black will do the cooking by the book, we may be seeing some unpredicted plan that might work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b X . X O O X X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I will do a full analysis later in the game if black plays as predicted, but for now, I will wait and see what happens.


This post by Kie was liked by: Dusk Eagle
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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #37 Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:10 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 66
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 4 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . B X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black here is not working I think (I dislike the shape black will get)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . b X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't know if it could be good to play this way...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 1 O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 B 2 X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #38 Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:30 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 147
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 4
Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't think black would play black (1) so I never analysed it, the reason is that white simply connects above and later can exchange the marked stones and now white has superb thickness in the center. White can now consider to sacrifice the stones at the bottom and squeeze out points in the corner. Black will gain maybe 16 points but w gain some points in the corner, sente and thickness which should be well worth over 16 pts. White can save the bottom group as well, but black should be able to live quite comfortably in the corner then, so hard to say what is best. I will see what black does next before making the final reading on this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 O @ O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X X # X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b a 1 X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After black (a), should white play (b) or (c)?

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #39 Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:47 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 66
Liked others: 0
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Rank: KGS 4 kyu
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . B X X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now I have a headache... I'm not sure to live in the corner and I'm not sure I can save the center stones if I don't kill the the G2 group stones... Well, this smell like the ends for black if things goes bad !
I hope to get the corner this way and maybe I could get a chance to get the side. But White thickness will be huge and I'm not sure I'll be able to negative it against a 3d :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 1 O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . 6 2 B X X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 55. Kie (3d) vs The Pilgrim (3k)
Post #40 Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:12 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 147
Liked others: 0
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Rank: EGF 1d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O W O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X X . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O O X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I decided not to sacrifice the bottom group, I could probably win by just keep adding influence but black has already 20 points pure cash due to the komi, the bottom right and bottom would then add up to about 60-70 points with topcorner? So I would need to make quite a profit without black adding much more else on the board, I'm usually a very territorial player so I'll try something else.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 5 O O 1 O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O X O X X 2 X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O O X X . . . b . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, I will capture at (3) after the forcemove, since the bottomgroup is alive already, black now has to take care of his two groups and I should be able to get either (a) or (b), the upside is that even if black saves both his groups, white already made good thickness and all groups are still alive, so white should be ok here.

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