Well, not doing that joseki...

I don't know this joseki very well. I know it to this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . 6 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

I once played 'a' in a game and my opponent correct me after the review. The move is supposed to be either or one below that - the diagonal. I think the attachment to the right of is also a thing, but I'd prefer not to touch that stone.

After I am on my own.

looks like my plan is working.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Hopefully this joseki. I wonder if I can attach at a first?

Same thing still. I am looking at the weakness of white's stones on the bottom. Obviously the cut doesn't work directly, but there is aji present. I think a move around E2 could be justified after white defends on the right.

I want to say moyoaji made a mistake by not playing b2. however I'm not 100 percent sure with this joseki. I'm more familiar with the diagram I posted earlier of just playing the two space extension of G3 immediately after the attachment of C3. I want to cut the knights move. But i think with the aji of my lower group it isn't smart. Hardest move of the game so far. I think the bump here might prep a cut. I really hate the e2 invasion variation. gahhh. I hope he e3 instead.

Didn't see this move coming at all. I have no idea what I'm supposed to play, so I'm just going to keep myself connected. I am still aiming at weaknesses on the bottom. E2 and J3 both look decent. I kind of like the idea of playing J3 and stealing territory on the bottom in exchange for giving white some outside thickness facing my own.

My group is now quite strong - fully out with plenty of liberties. All it lacks is a firm base. So, I may need to come back and play B2 at some point to give my group that base, but I don't want to play that and force a D2 response. That seems a bit aji-keshi. We'll see how my opponent responds to this move.

Looking at the big picture, now, I seem to be gaining thickness and influence over the territory I desired. Perhaps my high approach was a mistake? Would low truly have been better? Or perhaps two-space low? Or perhaps I should have simply played on the top side like I said I would?

I don't know why I did the things I did. It would have been a different game...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 If I could turn back time... It's one of those Cher moments.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . c . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

I going for thickness facing my 3-5. Maybe i can get sente to play the upper starpoint or approach the 3-3 to form a big moyo/framework.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . W . . . 9 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 8 . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O 4 6 O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

leaves weakness but maybe

With my opponent has apparently decided he is going to build the top and left in a big way. I feel like it is time to cash in my aji to get sente.

With my group is basically already alive. Yes, white can poke, but I'm still able to get out and, in the process of running, I would expose weaknesses in the bottom. will make white stronger, but I don't think it is going to make him invincible by any stretch of the imagination.

After a response, I want to play something on the left. I think I will approach the corner at the 3-4. I expect to be pincered again and I will come out.

By "joseki", which move sequence were you referring to ? And are you sure it is joseki ?
(You know this is closed book, so you already know to wait until after the game to check joseki references.)

For beginners.Suppose W replies with connect.
Now, even if B adds one more move, , locally B is still not alive:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . 3 5 X . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X 6 . . . . . ,
$$ | 7 . X O . . O . . .
$$ | . X O 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

I think is a mistake. Letting white play below cannot be good. White still has 'a' or 'b' to settle his group on the lower side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

ive seen this variation played in a lee changho game I reviewed recently. Also I've seen variants of it on kgs by Dan players. Maybe I'm wrong and it's a situational move but I'm pretty sure it's joseki.

stay solid and keep my opponent weak. He has to either live in gore or run out and I can still profit on the top.

stay solid and keep my opponent weak. He has to either live in gore or run out and I can still profit on the top.

A full night's sleep does wonders to a man's mind. I don't know why I was so greedy yesterday, desiring sente so much as to tenuki from a weak group, but my sanity has returned. I'm grateful it took Hades so long to make his last move.

A question one might ask is: would my group die if I tenuki'd right now. The answer is "no." Between what I have on the inside and what I have on the outside there is no doubt I could get two eyes. White cannot seal me in with one move and I have at least one eye on the inside. My group, for all intents and purposes, is alive.

However, I do not want my group to "just live." That is pointless. To have 20 stones live with 2 points between them is so sad. I fought with 13 and 15 to get out of the corner. Why should I forsake my stones now? Why should I allow white to seal me in on the outside?

I watched Nick Sibicky's lecture on the first game of the Lee Sedol vs. Gu Li series. He talked all about when to tenuki. And now I look at this board and the answer seems so obvious - do not tenuki from a weak group. Because I believe I can get something more valuable than sente. I get move 3 in the following diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 This move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . a . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

I am out. I am in the center. And I am aiming at 'a'. This move aims at 'a'.

And if white should be so kind as to let me have it then he can't stop me from taking away all the white points on the bottom with the wedge at , because that move makes 'a' and 'b' miai.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 This move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . z . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . a 2 3 O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O 6 1 4 b . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

When I read this out I laughed. It is perfectly placed. And I need not worry about the left yet. White's group at D7 is touching a group that is about to become strong. After I am out in the center I cannot easily be attacked. Whereas I can play a move around the 'z' area later to split white apart and take away his points.

How often I forget the proverb - "Invade the moyo one turn before it turns into territory." I was going to be way too hasty. So I apologize for being inconsistent with my words. But I would rather be totally inconsistent with my words than totally inconsistent with my go.

I can't complain. White looks better so far in this result. Moves at a, b,c look good. A seems most important as of now to seal off the bottom side. I might play B and then tenuki after black responds. C can wait because it still leaves the corner open for invasion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . b . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

My group is out. While I like the move on the bottom side of the board I don't think I will play it right away, and I don't think white will defend it either. Instead, I'd like to play an enclosure for my upper side corner.

I feel much calmer about the game now. My only concern would be white getting a double-wing formation coming from the upper left, but again, that can't happen in one move.

My goal was to play for territory. While my center group won't get me much, it at least stabs a sword into any central potential white might have had. Now I just need to start trying to get points. I think I'd like to play at O16. That feels like a really big point. Hopefully white doesn't take it, but I wouldn't blame him if he did. I'd take it if I was white.

EDIT: Further analysis of the position now leads me to believe my move is actually sente. The cut at J3 seems like it would give me too good of a result. Whichever response white gives it seems impossible for him to keep all his stones connected and my wall plus the stone at 1 prevents his bottom group from running. It will have to live locally and I don't see how it can live locally without giving me half of the bottom side of the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . a . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . c 4 5 O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . 3 b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

this move seals the side from being undercut. Still a large invasion point.

Indeed, letting W to poke out like that with seems very big for W.

Not sure what Hades meant by that. His is not a good combination with his other bottom stones --
it does not fix the big weakness at (a).
Locally (and globally?), maybe directly at (a) is better.
Globally, (b) is a big shared point.

So he protects the bottom side, but I'm not sure if this move actually stops my invasion.

There is a proverb that says "invade the moyo one turn before it becomes territory." If my opponent got another move on the bottom I don't see how I would invade it anymore. Additionally, since hurts my corner I think it would be in my best interest to weaken and .

I think white has to seal me into his framework and protect the outside. This would, of course, cost him all of his points on the bottom, but I think it is better than allowing me to split him. That being said, I hope he lets me split him. This is what I think the strongest play by white will lead to -

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . b 4 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . 6 2 3 O 8 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . 1 5 7 . a O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

After he'll have to either defend at 'a' or 'b'. So something is getting cut.