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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #201 Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 6:37 am 
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KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
observers
This is my reading:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm124 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O # 8 O 5 3 1 X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . # 7 6 4 X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 O . . 0 X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This is a forced sequence (as far as I can tell). Now we have black groups with 4 and 6 liberties and white groups with 4 and 5. As black I would want to capture both and win the game, but I don't know if that is possible. The :w24: :w26: :w28: group is interlocked with the black 4-liberty group and white has sente. If there aren’t any tricky tesujis black will lose the :bs: stones, but they were dead anyway. My point is this: white need to spend a move to save his cutting stones so black can extend to Q18 and it now stands 7 liberties to 4. Black has nothing to be afraid of.

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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #202 Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 7:06 am 
Oza
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Mnemonic wrote:
observers
This is my reading:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm124 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O # 8 O 5 3 1 X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . # 7 6 4 X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 O . . 0 X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This is a forced sequence (as far as I can tell). Now we have black groups with 4 and 6 liberties and white groups with 4 and 5. As black I would want to capture both and win the game, but I don't know if that is possible. The :w24: :w26: :w28: group is interlocked with the black 4-liberty group and white has sente. If there aren’t any tricky tesujis black will lose the :bs: stones, but they were dead anyway. My point is this: white need to spend a move to save his cutting stones so black can extend to Q18 and it now stands 7 liberties to 4. Black has nothing to be afraid of.


Consider if White plays 24 at 33. It threatens to capture two Black stones in a ladder. Black has to avoid not only the ladder but even an atari on the two stones because the situation to the right is fragile. It looks to me as though Black has some difficulty here.

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #203 Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 7:12 am 
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another posibility ? here B does not save his 2 marked stones but does not risk as much, forcing moves at :b29: :b31: allow to win the race as :b35: now threaten to make life
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm124 :w32: connects
$$+---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 6 8 2 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O # . O 4 3 1 X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . # . . 5 X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . 0 X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm134 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$+---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 2 4 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X 1 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . O # . O O O O X O O O O O O 9 |
$$ | . . . O . # . . O X X O O X X X X O 8|
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . X X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

if from below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm124 :w32: connects
$$+---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 9 7 2 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O # . O 4 3 1 X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . # . 0 6 X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EDIT:: posted before reading ezu posts .. seems its moot with a different :w24:

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In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.


Last edited by perceval on Mon May 30, 2011 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #204 Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 7:13 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm124 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . 1 . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


My aim with this move is to play l15 next to save my corner group by capturing these cutting stones

i dont know where he is going to play next but im guessing something to save his small k16 group from getting cut up

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #205 Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 7:35 am 
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@ez4u
I agree that the position does not look too well for black, but my point was that the cut at L17 does not seem too bad. If black plays L15 now he will have no worries on the upper side and may even be able to save his two stones on the left if white cut's. Q13 does look evil though.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm124 How would you respond to :w26: ? The best I got is this ko :sad:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . 2 X X O 4 7 X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . 1 5 O C O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 6 . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

_________________
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #206 Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Apologies to 1986, and all - I think my next move is going to take a while.

Damn, I can't believe I missed that. Clearly, it threatens my two important cutting stones at M15/N15, but it also seems to make the block at Q13 effective. I think my only choices are either to sacrifice M15/N15 (which will leave me substantially behind, especially as N18 won't then be obviously alive), or save them and have some sort of ko fight over the fate of my wall at R15. It doesn't look like a particularly favourable ko for me - and I also think I have a few ways to set one up - but it may be my only chance to win. Although I still think white has more ko threats than me :sad: It doesn't look good, but I intend to do some serious reading here to see if I can salvage anything.

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #207 Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:59 am 
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KGS: robinz
OK, turns out I don't need as long as I thought - a night to sleep on the position (plus a bit more reading to check my conclusions) and I'm ready to move on :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm125 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Well, yeah, this is a fairly huge concession. But I simply can't let that wall die and have any hope of winning, and nor does the ko (however I choose to set it up) look remotely winnable. So I'm sacrificing the two stones - next I will live with my top group by playing J17, which could even be sort-of sente (depending on how black responds). I'm pretty sure I'm losing by quite a bit now (I'm kind of taking it for granted than white will play L15 now, but I guess I've been wrong about 1986's intentions often enough in this game), but I think I can keep it within 15-20 points, which isn't yet resignable at our level. I am surely going to have to reduce white's territory like a man possessed to have a chance, though :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #208 Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Location: Coloradao USA
Liked others: 50
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Rank: malk-5k
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm126 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O . . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . 1 X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


well, this is pretty much the only move now
the question is how is he going to Handel the few stones to the left ...

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #209 Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:36 am 
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Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm127 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O 1 . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As I said, let's live with the top group. (I won't rule out the possibility that I can live even if I tenuki, but I'm very unsure of this and don't want to risk it. At the very least, white would get some rather large sente moves.) I don't think this is quite sente, but it does eye up the possiblity of doing some damage to his 1 space jump, or perhaps even connecting underneath to F17. I'm going to have to come out all guns blazing now to win this game - expect me to routinely ignore "sente" white moves (unless what they threaten is enormous) as I embark on a rampage of mutual damage in an attempt to claw back points and make this game complicated :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #210 Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Rank: malk-5k
KGS: go1986
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm128 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i been doing alot of studying on my game lately 
playing a maklovitch is a good way to improve

this moves is basic i was going to play a hane either the top or the bottom side but i dont want to help him strenthen his side with a 
response that could be sente for him again!

after reading how to not play go i can see how i had wishful thinking
in my own game :) 

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #211 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:13 am 
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Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
Was liked: 15
Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm129 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 1 . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Yep, that's the response I expected - I certainly think it's the best. For consistency's sake, if nothing else, I need to respond to it - and unfortunately I think white can tenuki. But I'm looking at H16 to see if it works now (I think not, but I need to keep looking) - if not I certainly hope to be able to take advantage of it later.

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #212 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:46 pm 
Lives in gote
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Rank: malk-5k
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm130 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . 1 . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is the biggest move i could find it explands my moyo at the bottom, i need to make a comeback, slow and steady

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #213 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:29 am 
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Location: Durham, UK
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Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm131 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X 1 . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That's big, again, but it's not sente - so at first I wanted to ignore it and play R2 (big shiny move I've wanted for ages, and was relieved that white hasn't just taken). But then I reflected that I can play this extension first - if white ignores it, I can cut at G5; while it won't necessarily work, it would create exactly the kind of tactical complications that I now need. So I expect white to respond, and then I'll R2. Plus, this point feels huge - the effect if white gets it is vastly better for him, and it's probably even sente too.

The plan at the moment, then, is to get R2 as soon as I can (on my next move, unless something unexpected happens), then work my way into white's lower territory in whatever way I can.

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Post #214 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:59 am 
Honinbo
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robinz,
robinz wrote:
if white ignores it, I can cut at G5;
G5 is (a); could you show your variations?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . a . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #215 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:14 am 
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Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
EdLee:

Well, as I kind of implied in my post, I've not actually calculated very far - just that there's a cut there which will lead to another fight; it could be that my cutting stones will die, but I don't think it's completely trivial (at our level, anyway) to kill them, so, needing a big comeback as I do right now, it would be fun to try :D

I'm seeing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X 3 O 4 . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . 2 1 a . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . b . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

and then :b5: at perhaps a or b.

Actually, having started to look in more detail when trying to answer your question, I am finding that most of the most promising attempts seem to not work :sad: But I will keep looking, and hope to find something. Note that I at least keep sente in the above line (if I tenuki after :w4:), and that, even if the cutting stones do die, they could be useful aji to aid a later invasion of this area.

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #216 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Rank: malk-5k
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm132 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X 1 O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this move is threatining the cut he is going to connect and im going to think about the next biggest play

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #217 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:49 pm 
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In my opinion, this sort of move is the type that players around this strength need to scrub from their games. It is sente and robinz should respond with a connection, but it accomplishes nothing for white. It removes a liberty and forces black to connect. He can play it at any time as white can ignore it if black plays there. This move isn't valuable to white.

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #218 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:24 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 414
Location: Durham, UK
Liked others: 96
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Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm133 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:cry: :cry: :cry:

- that just about sums up my feelings about this game right now. I had somehow totally missed that white could play that move, protecting everything in sente. There is no way I can let white get away with cutting at E7, which would capture my 2 cutting stones and thereby bring his left-hand group to life. I'll wait for a few moves to see how things pan out, but I am thinking I will resign soon unless I can bring about something dramatic.

(It's also rather embarrassing that I could lose this game so convincingly despite having by far the greatest number of prisoners, counting all the dead stones on the board. I guess I've been guilty of not making big enough moves and playing too close - that will be something to look out for when I review this game. Right now I'll have to concentrate my efforts on somehow pulling off a comeback though.)

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #219 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm134
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . 1 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this ought to get me more time to think
i should stay agressive and look to make territory
i dont plan on following up in that area immediately 
its my attemept at leaving a glowing ember, maybe something will come up later  

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 Post subject: Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986
Post #220 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:35 pm 
Lives in sente
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If I were Black I would feel very happy about the last two moves from 1986. These moves only help to remove aji and burn ko threats. At the least, Black can be a little happier about being allowed to solidify those areas. At worse, White might find the outcome of the game is contingent on a huge ko, and he just wasted two of his biggest threats for no good reason.

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